New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light • Hacker News Board

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#131

Post by Reason077 » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

korantu wrote: post #60

lostlogin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless how expensive it get, it won't burn tons of fossil fuels. Maybe it won’t be a lot once built, but fuel extraction and processing are energy intensive. Also, 10 years of construction and the vast quantity of steel and concrete are going to burn one hell of a lot of fossil fuel. It would be interesting to compare the lifetime fossil fuel usage of all power generators, including construction and disposal (a…

Fair comparison here is overall energy invested for energy obtained. For nuclear, as it is much denser energy-wise then anything else, you need to do the least amount of digging per MW capacity / let alone overall produced MWh. Nuclear is orders of magnitude better than other low-co2 options. For example for solar it is about 6, versus 75 for nuclear. [1] Also instructive to keep in mind just how energy dense nuclear…

> ”Fair comparison here is overall energy invested for energy obtained.”

We think of “energy invested” as having an environmental cost, and of course that’s true when it comes from polluting fossil sources.

But as grids get cleaner, and transport vehicles and construction equipment are electrified, this is no longer such a concern. Eventually we’re just using clean energy to build more clean energy - a virtuous cycle!

New low-carbon concrete formulas and steel production technology are also needed, of course, since these are a major source of emissions whether for a nuclear plant or wind farm.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#132

Post by skitout » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:29 AM UTC

NextHendrix wrote: post #123

One thing to follow in terms of nuclear power in the UK is the work being done in small modular reactors (SMR). These are much smaller PWR reactors that are intended to be considerably cheaper and faster to build than the massive reactors at places like Hinkley Point, Sizewell etc, as well as being far less onerous to decommission. The designs will be such that components can be mass produced in an assembly-line like…

SMR is interesting and have advantages... but it is not ready yet, and there are uncertainty about the cost. Wind and solar are getting so cheap that I have doubt SMR can compete on price... Possibly it could compete at the margin when the cost of storage (electrical and thermal) and demand-response are too expensive.

About the current cost of the different type of energy: https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-o... (please note that capacity factor would be different according to the country, for example renewable energy would be more expensive in France than is this document)

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#133

Post by radu_floricica » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:36 AM UTC

skitout wrote: post #132

NextHendrix wrote: post #123

One thing to follow in terms of nuclear power in the UK is the work being done in small modular reactors (SMR). These are much smaller PWR reactors that are intended to be considerably cheaper and faster to build than the massive reactors at places like Hinkley Point, Sizewell etc, as well as being far less onerous to decommission. The designs will be such that components can be mass produced in an assembly-line like…

SMR is interesting and have advantages... but it is not ready yet, and there are uncertainty about the cost. Wind and solar are getting so cheap that I have doubt SMR can compete on price... Possibly it could compete at the margin when the cost of storage (electrical and thermal) and demand-response are too expensive. About the current cost of the different type of energy: https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-…

Economies of scale. Most of the cost for a traditional nuclear plant is regulatory&decomissioning. If new nuclear can get over that, and it's allowed to go through a couple of iterations (which happens much faster nowadays), there is really no way to estimate how low the price can go. A 10x reduction is not out of question, if you look at SpaceX for example, another industry where innovation has been frozen for decades.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#134

Post by imtringued » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:39 AM UTC

pfdietz wrote: post #73

pasabagi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Construction projects are inherently unpredictable, because it's building something large, bespoke, and in constantly varying conditions. Nuclear plants are very complex, so that obviously raises the level of unpredictability. Every manufactured object has an insanely long and convoluted dependency chain, where each link is subject to disappearance due to factors completely out of your control. Especially objects tha…

> Construction projects are inherently unpredictable And yet, renewable projects typically come in within 10% of the contracted price.

If each solar farm consisted of one giant solar panel I'm sure we would see exactly the same problem. In reality building a solar farm involves redoing one simple step over and over again. It's much easier to scale up.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#135

Post by Spare_account » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:39 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #128

CodeGlitch wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK homes are heated with gas, not electricity.

Yes, have you replied to the wrong comment? Besides, very soon all new construction in the UK will be required to be heated exclusively by electricity, so for new housing heating costs will be absolutely huge compared to gas.

My rough calculations me that switching my 1970s UK detached home from gas to electric for hot water and central heating would triple my usage costs (and that doesn't include the cost of switching in the first place).

I'm still interested in doing it though because it would massively simplify the heating system. Removing gas from the system would mean I could do all the regular maintenance by myself whereas at present I'm obliged to use a registered, gas-trained plumber on the boiler itself because the law requires it.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#136

Post by radu_floricica » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:40 AM UTC

1337shadow wrote: post #71

socialdemocrat wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inertia of the industry combined with risk aversion. Nuclear regulation is not really setup for small modular reactors and nuclear power still has a bad name. The nuclear fanboys still push the big reactors. I think renewable fans like me favor next gen rectors because we are okay with not building reactors right away. We can build renewables until they are developed. Nuclear fans OTOH hate renewables and just want t…

I see, so we can quickly build cheap & safe small molten salt reactors but we actually don't build because of risk aversion and industry inertia so that's really a shame (I thought the tech just wasn't ready yet). Another problem is nuclear fanboys: why exactly do they hate renewables so much ?

I'm a nuclear fanboy, and I don't hate renewables. Nor do I know anybody who does. We just want nuclear to be allowed. After that, of course it's a matter of results. But currently the narrative is that "we don't want nuclear, because we have renewables"

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#137

Post by corty » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:40 AM UTC

stinos wrote: post #102

onion2k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the whole UK energy grid could become fossil free, and the only cost would be a 2x increase in costs, then that would be to me a fair price to pay. A large number of people would die as a result of such a policy. Fuel poverty is already a significant problem, the UK government gives out 'winter fuel payment' benefits to some, but doubling the price of energy would push a lot of elderly, infirm, and poor people to…

doubling the price of energy would push a lot of elderly, infirm, and poor people to stop heating their homes 2x increase in cost doens't necessarily directly translate to doubling the price for everyone. For example it could be coupled with a scheme where consuming way above average makes the part which is above much more expensive, depending on income, to yield the ones consuming less and/or low income not having t…

It could be, but coming from happy Energiewende Germany, as a household you pay more than twice as much for your power as any industrial or commercial user, 30ct/kWh vs. 12ct/kWh. The difference comes from the usual rebates, but the largest part is that commercial users don't pay the renewable tax that is mandatory for non-commercial users. For the really big users, such as smeltings, there are additional subsidies on top to keep the price of power even lower.

So the situation might be different elsewhere, but in Germany, poor consumers pay for Energiewende plus subsidies.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#138

Post by _Microft » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #124

_Microft wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle Ages called, they want their concepts back. Why is "geographical independency" desirable here? We ditched the concept of self-sufficiency long ago for almost every other product. Your iPhone was not built here. Your banana was not grown here. The corn might have been grown half a country away. The drugs you might have been prescribed were maybe not produced in your country at all. Why would energy be so differ…

> Your iPhone was not built here. Your banana was not grown here. The corn might have been grown half a country away. The drugs you might have been prescribed were maybe not produced in your country at all. Why would energy be so different in that regard? The examples you provided here really don't illustrate your point well because most of them are easily shipped across the ocean which is not at all true for energy.

Renewable energy production is not as centralized as production of physical goods. There is no need to transmit energy that far.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#139

Post by imtringued » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:49 AM UTC

spockz wrote: post #93

manfredo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that nuclear is the only known geographically independent way of generating carbon free energy that isn't subject to intermittency. The redundancy isn't an issue with nuclear, it's an issue of the notion that we need nuclear and renewables. Just cut out the renewables, and only use nuclear. Using nuclear to fill in the duck curve makes renewables redundant, thus the aversion to nuclear of many proponents…

Nuclear is not really geographically independent though. The plant has to be constructed to withstand earthquakes, floods, and other natural disasters.

It also has to be near a reliable water source so that it can be cooled. The bigger the power plant the more geographically constrained it is. France faces low river flow rates in the summer because of climate chance and this forces them to take some of the nuclear plants offline. Otherwise the waste heat would make it impossible for aquatic life to live near those power plants. Ever wondered why someone make an "obvious" mistake such as building Fukushima directly near the tsunami prone coast? Because the ocean is a reliable heat sink.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#140

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:56 AM UTC

corty wrote: post #137

stinos wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doubling the price of energy would push a lot of elderly, infirm, and poor people to stop heating their homes 2x increase in cost doens't necessarily directly translate to doubling the price for everyone. For example it could be coupled with a scheme where consuming way above average makes the part which is above much more expensive, depending on income, to yield the ones consuming less and/or low income not having t…

It could be, but coming from happy Energiewende Germany, as a household you pay more than twice as much for your power as any industrial or commercial user, 30ct/kWh vs. 12ct/kWh. The difference comes from the usual rebates, but the largest part is that commercial users don't pay the renewable tax that is mandatory for non-commercial users. For the really big users, such as smeltings, there are additional subsidies o…

[deleted]