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New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

bbc.com

121–130 of 285 posts

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#121

The others are already over budget and behind schedule, the private companies meant to be heading them are dropping like flies. This won't end well... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54158091 https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/energy-news/toshiba-withdraw... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/25/hinkley-poin...

> One of the reasons that the electricity that Hinkley will one day produce is so expensive (£92.50 per megawatt hour, compared with gas and wind at about £40) is that the constructors were required to shoulder the risk of any cost overruns themselves. EDF estimates that the cost of electricity produced at Sizewell will be somewhere between £40 and £60. So even the company with a financial incentive to under-estimate…

> So even the company with a financial incentive to under-estimate the cost is saying that the electricity it produces will be at best as expensive as wind energy already is.

... And be low-carbon (~10gCO2/kWh). Whereas the £40/MWh estimate for wind included gas power generation, which is at 400gCO2/kWh. Given how wind has a typical load factor of 20-30% max in Western Europe, you’d be using gas at best 70% of the time, meaning an average carbon intensity perhaps around 300gCO2/kWh.

So for the same price (or even double that as a first step - nuclear costs decrease radically with lower risks perceived by investors), nuclear gets you > 30x less carbon in the atmosphere than wind+gas. That is not insignificant.

> they're only used on such days, then the cost per Joule is even worse.

Nuclear isn’t like gas: it is fixed-costs infrastructure, meaning that the more you use it, cheaper it gets. So you want to use it as much as possible. (French nuclear plants oscillate between 75% and 90% load depending on maintenance schedules.) So on a windy day, nuclear load won’t typically change too much, but rather gas and coal usage will go down to let wind electricity match up with demand. This means nuclear gets you less emissions even in that case.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#122
post #6

The others are already over budget and behind schedule, the private companies meant to be heading them are dropping like flies. This won't end well... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54158091 https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/energy-news/toshiba-withdraw... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/25/hinkley-poin...

Regardless how expensive it get, it won't burn tons of fossil fuels. Government should just set the conditions for new power and heating infrastructure. No fossil fuels. Zero carbon. A minimum and peak capacity based on current and projected demands. Private companies can bid, but they can't change the conditions. If a private company can more cheaply and faster build massive amount of battery and use exclusively win…

If its like the other projects, it may never generate a single kWh when it gets cancelled.

Also, it will be much too late to avoid massive climate change so its a bit mute. And that's assuming we also cut all our other emissions and every other country on earth cuts theirs...

Plus "no matter what the cost" is a pretty weird attitude if you don't mind me saying. If we can save more carbon by spending the same money elsewhere, shouldn't we do that instead?

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#123
One thing to follow in terms of nuclear power in the UK is the work being done in small modular reactors (SMR). These are much smaller PWR reactors that are intended to be considerably cheaper and faster to build than the massive reactors at places like Hinkley Point, Sizewell etc, as well as being far less onerous to decommission. The designs will be such that components can be mass produced in an assembly-line like fashion and transported to the sites.

Development is going forward under the UK SMR Consortium (Rolls Royce, NAMRC, NNL and a few others) and there is quite a lot of buzz in the UK's civil nuclear industry at the moment.

Some further reading for the interested:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/advanced-nuclear-...

https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/nuclear/sm...

https://namrc.co.uk/intelligence/smr/

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that nuclear is the only known geographically independent way of generating carbon free energy that isn't subject to intermittency. The redundancy isn't an issue with nuclear, it's an issue of the notion that we need nuclear and renewables. Just cut out the renewables, and only use nuclear. Using nuclear to fill in the duck curve makes renewables redundant, thus the aversion to nuclear of many proponents…

Middle Ages called, they want their concepts back. Why is "geographical independency" desirable here? We ditched the concept of self-sufficiency long ago for almost every other product. Your iPhone was not built here. Your banana was not grown here. The corn might have been grown half a country away. The drugs you might have been prescribed were maybe not produced in your country at all. Why would energy be so differ…

> Your iPhone was not built here. Your banana was not grown here. The corn might have been grown half a country away. The drugs you might have been prescribed were maybe not produced in your country at all. Why would energy be so different in that regard?

The examples you provided here really don't illustrate your point well because most of them are easily shipped across the ocean which is not at all true for energy.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#125
post #10
post #2

Good news for the climate and the environment!

Better news if they had put the money into renewables and storage.

Or into reducing demand.

How many homes could you insulate for even a tenth of the cost of this project?

There are around 4 milion UK homes using electric storage heaters or ancient oil heating systems for starters.

Office blocks waste vast amounts of electricity on heating and cooling that could be reduced through tougher building regulations.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables are already widely deployed and payed for. It is nuts to build nuclear to replace fully functional wind turbines and solar cells. Nuclear fans just have no economic sense. It is all about nuclear no matter the cost.

Maybe some promising new storage technology will prevail, but solutions that are 5-10 years of development away from being viable have a habit of taking a lot more than 5-10 years to become viable. Until then nuclear presents the only proven way of decarbonizing an energy sector to a great extent that works in any environment. It's true that nuclear doesn't make economic sense relative to running a gas plant and usin…

Ignoring the fact that we don't need 5-10 year development for batteries. You are ignoring the 5-10 year build time for a nuclear reactor.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#127
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doubling the price of energy would push a lot of elderly, infirm, and poor people to stop heating their homes 2x increase in cost doens't necessarily directly translate to doubling the price for everyone. For example it could be coupled with a scheme where consuming way above average makes the part which is above much more expensive, depending on income, to yield the ones consuming less and/or low income not having t…

And yet it's often the people on smallest income who consume the most for heating because their houses as unlikely to be insulated well. The government is giving out grants to improve insulation/boiler efficiency, but if you live in council housing you're screwed again.

In the UK homes are heated with gas, not electricity.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it's often the people on smallest income who consume the most for heating because their houses as unlikely to be insulated well. The government is giving out grants to improve insulation/boiler efficiency, but if you live in council housing you're screwed again.

In the UK homes are heated with gas, not electricity.

Yes, have you replied to the wrong comment?

Besides, very soon all new construction in the UK will be required to be heated exclusively by electricity, so for new housing heating costs will be absolutely huge compared to gas.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost matters. If you can build renewable power at a fraction of the price, why go nuclear? We can keep gas as backup until storage solutions are better developed. If money was no issue you could just build a ton of pumped hydro in Scotland and or batter storage. And if you absolutely want to spend on nuclear power, spend it in SMRs and molten salt reactors. ThorCon is probably not that far from a working solution if…

> If money was no issue you could just build a ton of pumped hydro in Scotland and or batter storage. Wikipedia says " The potential for further practical and viable hydroelectricity power stations in the UK is estimated to be in the region of 146 to 248 MW for England and Wales,[4] and up to 2,593 MW for Scotland.[5] However, by the nature of the remote and rugged geographic locations of some of these potential site…

There are many other solutions than traditional pumped hydro when it comes to electrical storage : new pump hydro on isolated reservoirs (eg gordon butte), battries (eg flow batteries), compressed air, liquid air, stacked bloks, heat to energy come in mind

And you can store energy as heat or cold, which is easier and cheaper, with a bigger potential

And you can have an impact on the demand side, with energy efficiency and demand-response

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#130
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables + storage (both short and long term). At the current rate of improvement of these technologies, this will be cheaper. Building expensive baseload now is a recipe for stranded assets not far down the road.

Can you explain a little more about the storage part of this? I see renewables and storage mentioned every time this topic comes up. It seems like we've got the solar panels and wind turbines figured out, but I'm skeptical on the storage part. I tried doing some research myself, but everything I find reads like a press release from a company that is attempting some kind of storage. As far as I can tell, there is no a…

It'd be especially interesting to see how expensive renewables plus storage end up being, relative to nuclear.
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