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Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

nytimes.com

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Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#131

Post by njarboe »

twblalock wrote: post #126

This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the poor and the lower middle class, who work in fields where working from home is not possible. Emission regulations and fuel taxes also fall disproportionately on the same people, because they can't afford newer cars which are more efficient. When the French gove…

I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. Food production is critical work and is still allowed. It is the service industry (bars, restaurants, hotels, travel, sports, concerts, etc.) that is taking the hit, but it also has lots of low wage jobs.

If a carbon tax was applied to whole countries and the funds collected given back as a per person dividend instead of going into the general budget, I think most people would support that. There are ways forward. We just have to support ways that work with the system we have instead of using climate change as a crisis to implement the utopian ideas of a few.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#132

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

BurningFrog wrote: post #127
mistrial9 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nobody, except banks perhaps.. on a related note, the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill, covering thousands of hectares of pristine Alaska coastline with suffocating, deadly raw oil, was famously "good for the economy" .. because almost every measure of economic health increased in the aftermath of the events.. of course, millions of sea creatures died, and the area was poisoned for who-knows-how-long.. make sense?

I guess "good for the economy" here means it increased GDP for the affected area. This is a common critique of GDP as a measure of economic health. And it's a fair one. But in the bigger picture, GDP remains the best measure I know of. Accidents and disasters will happen, but their rate is fairly constant, and the noise they add to the measurement is far from invalidating it.

That last sentence makes no sense at all.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#133

Post by phyzome »

ciconia wrote: post #67

Despite the loss of human life, and the economic suffering of a great chunk of our species, a lot of good may come of the present pandemic. I believe this crisis has the potential to bring about a fundamental change in the way we relate to the world and to each other. It's as if humanity is at a crossroads: everything is possible, and we need to make a choice. I read this morning something that struck me as true: "We…

1/5th to 1/20th of a micron, though. :-)

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#134

Post by zaroth »

thatcat wrote: post #124
zaroth wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing that this particular time off of work is going to lead to reduced stress, don’t you? The stress isn’t typically so much caused by working, it’s caused by being in financial distress. I’ve had a few years with virtually no income. I’ve had to work 80 hours a week to provide for my family. I’m not saying my personal experience is particularly valid or applicable to the general population, b…

You're right in that the psychological stress from uncertainty can be much more overwhelming than physiological stress from burnout. I doubt you're "immune" to burnout though.

Sorry, the quotes around immune were meant to relay that I didn’t mean it literally and indeed recognizing that it’s a common (and unhealthy) misconception people can have about themselves.

Those two bytes of ASCII didn’t fully communicate all of that?

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#135

Post by throwaway894345 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35
johnchristopher wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like we did for the financial crisis, the climate crisis, etc. In a nutshell ? Either you approach this with a class warfare mindset or the usual suspects are going to come out on top again.

Genuine question: what’s wrong with class warfare if certain classes are causing an overwhelming amount of the problem? Typically, you go to war against whatever is putting your life in peril.

If class warfare is weak, then it probably just annoys the upper class and makes them less likely to cooperate. If you have some violent “glorious revolution” in mind, then you very probably wreck the economy and damn a huge portion of the lower class to extreme poverty, including the deaths of tens of millions and you also probably create a new, even narrower, more corrupt class of oligarchs with even more control over policy and the “means of production”.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#136

Post by tomp »

twblalock wrote: post #126

This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the poor and the lower middle class, who work in fields where working from home is not possible. Emission regulations and fuel taxes also fall disproportionately on the same people, because they can't afford newer cars which are more efficient. When the French gove…

The answer is, obviously, combining climate policy with populism. Tax CO2 / fuel / packaging / consumption / transport as much as you want, but spend that tax money on a UBI-like benefit. That by definition helps lowest earners the most, plus makes sure the government doesn’t waste the money.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#137

Post by toomuchtodo »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #135
toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: what’s wrong with class warfare if certain classes are causing an overwhelming amount of the problem? Typically, you go to war against whatever is putting your life in peril.

If class warfare is weak, then it probably just annoys the upper class and makes them less likely to cooperate. If you have some violent “glorious revolution” in mind, then you very probably wreck the economy and damn a huge portion of the lower class to extreme poverty, including the deaths of tens of millions and you also probably create a new, even narrower, more corrupt class of oligarchs with even more control o…

That makes it sound like all outcomes are similar, whether through apathy of doing nothing or through violent revolution, no? We’re not quite at rock bottom but it appears in sight, regarding climate change. The economy is a bit in a wreck already as well.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#138

Post by twblalock »

njarboe wrote: post #131
twblalock wrote: post #126

This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the poor and the lower middle class, who work in fields where working from home is not possible. Emission regulations and fuel taxes also fall disproportionately on the same people, because they can't afford newer cars which are more efficient. When the French gove…

I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. Food production is critical work and is still allowed. It is the service industry (bars, restaurants, hotels, travel, sports, concerts, etc.) that is taking the hit, but it also has lots of low wage jobs. If a carbon tax was applied to whole countries and the funds collected given back as a per person dividend instead of going into the general b…

> I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work.

I didn't mean literal field workers. I mean field as in "job field".

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#139

Post by tomp »

gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

If anything, the virus shows how mainstream media messaging that Global Warming is a CATASTROPHE and that we have to PANIC right NOW to prevent it, is counterproductive when a real panic comes around (and noone takes you seriously).

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#140

Post by vkou »

arrosenberg wrote: post #112
cat199 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> democratic values devils advocate, but if it ends up that democratic states don't handle the response as well as authoritarian ones out of differing views of individual rights, this isn't necessarily a 'win' for the democratic side of the fence

You'd also have to acknowledge that the (Chinese) authoritarian response is what allowed the outbreak to get this bad in the first place. In the United States the Federal response has looked much more like the authoritarian response — no action for regular people, misdirection, profiteering, and grabbing for more power. Compared to the responses we saw under more democratic government against Zika, Ebola, Avian Flu,…

> You'd also have to acknowledge that the (Chinese) authoritarian response is what allowed the outbreak to get this bad in the first place.

I have so far seen zero reason to believe that if the outbreak originated in Kansas, or Poland, or Bangalore, it would not have spread across the world by now.

The difference in reaction between red/blue states has less to do with liberalism/authoritarianism, and more to do with the anti-science bent of the modern US right.

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