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How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

nytimes.com

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Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#131

Post by gamblor956 »

root_axis wrote: post #113
gamblor956 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has a monopoly on iOS devices. An iApp only runs on iOS, so it's irrelevant that Apple is a minority of the mobile market because that's not the market being analyzed for the antitrust issues.

This logic makes no sense. Using your reasoning Nintendo is a monopoly because only Nintendo devices will run Nintendo games.

Nintendo is a monopoly with respect to Nintendo games (but not Nintendo devices, since you can buy those all over).

Monopolies aren't inherently illegal. See e.g., patents and copyrights, which are legally granted or protected monopolies.

What is illegal is anti-competitive practices. This doesn't require a dominant or even majority market position--authorities in the US and EU have gone after companies with relatively small market shares that engaged in anti competitive actions (though they haven't done so in many years).

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#132

Post by judge2020 »

gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #110

I wouldn't say I have trouble considering this issue, I know what my opinion is. The ramifications feel uncomfortable because Apple is the Goliath, it feels bizarre their behavior should need defending. The idea I get hung up on is Apple doesn't control the market, they control access to the customers companies want. And those customers made a free choice to enter apple's ecosystem. They could get an Android, they co…

> they don't pay it

There's not much they can do in this regard; they might actually pay the Apple Tax in the accounting sense, but the tax taken goes into the same bank account. They can't take less money from the $10 Apple Music charge since the tax has to go somewhere, and they can't just charge less money for their services since that would just be changing the price for the users, making competition even angrier about Apple undercutting them.

The Apple tax is 30% by the way.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#133

Post by damnyou »

ceejayoz wrote: post #72
simion314 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just some question so is clear in my mind what your idea is Why more then 80% ? why not 50% + 1 IS 80% of smartphones ? or smartphones+tablets , or all phones , or 80% of capital/financial of all mobile app stores ? What if I say that Apple has 100% monopoly on the iOS? you would say but what about Android ? I would say if I am Netflix,Spotify,Bank X, etc I have no REAL choice as a developer not to make iOS apps simi…

> What if I say that Apple has 100% monopoly on the iOS? That'd be a silly argument. By that logic, Ford has a 100% monopoly on F-150s. > why not 50% + 1 Because the "mono" in monopoly means "one", not "two". You can accurately say that Apple and Google enjoy an oligopoly in the mobile operating system market. You cannot reasonably say either one holds a monopoly.

I'm sure you've seen endless comments on this website about how Apple has an outsized amount of "profit share", and that it matters a lot more than market share for app developers.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#134

Post by gamblor956 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #34
Causality1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU fined Microsoft six hundred million dollars just for including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player in Windows by default. Apple's behavior is much worse than that.

Apple does not have a monopoly in the mobile phone market like Microsoft had in the operating system market. Microsoft also had a court order to comply with that they forgot about in Windows 7. https://www.engadget.com/2013/03/06/microsoft-european-commi...

Microsoft never had a monopoly in the OS market. Plenty of businesses large and small used competing OSs like Apple, Unix, Linux, Beos, OS/2, DOS, etc.

Microsoft had a dominant market position, and anti-competitively leveraged that market position in operating systems to muscle its way into the internet browser market.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#135

Post by frogpelt »

Betelgeuse90 wrote: post #82
frogpelt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

Spotify is 7th place for me. Apple Music is first. Maybe the country you're in makes a difference.

Spotify 23rd was a reference to the article in the NY Times.

It's 5th for me today, not including the Pandora ad at the top.

Quote from the infographic in the article:

"Before Apple Music arrived in the App Store, Spotify was for years the first result in searches for “music.” Shortly after Apple Music was added to the store in June 2016, it took the top spot. By then, Spotify had fallen to fourth place. In Feb. 2018, Apple apps suddenly appeared in the top six results for “music.” By the end of 2018, there were eight, some of which were unrelated to music. At this point, Spotify was the 23rd result. Spotify complained to European regulators in March that Apple was abusing its role as the gatekeeper of the App Store. By April, all but two of Apple’s apps disappeared from the top results for “music.”"

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#136

Post by damnyou »

coldtea wrote: post #94
m_ke wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS revenue is 2x larger than android. There might be more cheap android phones out there but Apple has the majority of high income individuals.

Which is not relevant. Monopoly is defined on a market, not on income segments (and even if it mattered, still on the high income individuals iOS is hardly above say 70%). Someone could sell cars for $5K and have 99% of the car market in a small city of 1000 people, while another one sells a single car for 100M and has 20 times the other's revenue. It's still the cheap car guy that has the monopoly.

Of course it's relevant. A definition of monopoly that only relies on raw unit numbers is obviously incomplete.

Antitrust is about power, and Apple has a lot of it.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#137

Post by gamblor956 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #38
simion314 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40% market share in the US, they’re not even a monopoly Can someone confirm my understanding that there is no percentage like 90% and if you are over that you are a monopoly . Is more about if you abuse your dominant position to screw the competition and consumers, and in this case Apple is screwing the application developers that they compete with by abusing their dominant position.

You have to have a dominant position to abuse it. You can quibble over whether 80% or 90% is a monopoly, but 40% clearly isn't one.

You have to have a dominant position to abuse it.

This is true. But antitrust law doesn't require that you have a mnonopoly or a dominant market position. It's simply that the analysis is more complex and significantly more contextual if you don't have a dominant market position.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#138

Post by kurttt »

michaelt wrote: post #2

The algorithm examines 42 different signals, they said, including an app’s relevance to a given search, its ratings, and its popularity based on downloads and user clicks. [...] If you searched for “podcast” in May 2018, you would have had to scroll through as many as 14 Apple apps before finding one made by another publisher. [...] “We make mistakes all the time,” Mr. Cue said. “We’re happy to admit when we do,” Mr.…

compass, podcast

[+] Both 7 letters [+] Both contain "c", "o", "p", "a" and "s"

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#139

Post by sebastianconcpt »

The executives said the company did not manually alter search results to benefit itself. Instead, they said, Apple apps generally rank higher than competitors because of their popularity and because their generic names are often a close match to broad search terms.

No need to if the algorithm includes to artificially normalize having some of their apps syroketing their raning value.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#140

Post by WaltPurvis »

ceejayoz wrote: post #38
simion314 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40% market share in the US, they’re not even a monopoly Can someone confirm my understanding that there is no percentage like 90% and if you are over that you are a monopoly . Is more about if you abuse your dominant position to screw the competition and consumers, and in this case Apple is screwing the application developers that they compete with by abusing their dominant position.

You have to have a dominant position to abuse it. You can quibble over whether 80% or 90% is a monopoly, but 40% clearly isn't one.

There's a whole host of anticompetitive and restraint-of-trade business practices that are illegal whether a company has 90% or 40% or 2% market share.
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