I graduated in '99 with a 2.1 CompSci degree - the year a Chinese chap threw himself off the top of an 10-storey engineering building because he couldn't go back with a 2.1 degree.
Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
131–140 of 217 posts
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#132A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…
quote from original WSG article.
"If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A."
Do you want to do this to your child?
It may be just me but WSG article looks like a well concealed satire on Chinese/Asian parenting :)
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#133Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…
I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those parti…
Did a quick search and found this:
http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2008/03/17...
Essentially, they are seen as the most 'refined' instruments to learn and play.
The piano is chosen as you need to learn both treble and bass clef to play, the violin because they are portable and light enough for very young children to hold.
From tfa.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…
You should leave in the "fuck you". That emotional response is apt in to convey how much this screws up people.
> You should leave in the "fuck you".
Only if he'd say it to lionhearted in person, over a dinner conversation, per the HN etiquette guide. He's certainly within his rights to feel strongly about this, and to convey his belief in the harm caused by the demanding, uncompromising style of child-rearing; but there should be a way to do that with a modicum of tact.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#135Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…
I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those parti…
A Nature article suggests it's music training in general with regard to verbal memory: "...adults who received music training before the age of 12 have a better memory for spoken words than those who did not. Music training in childhood may therefore have long-term positive effects on verbal memory." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v396/n6707/abs/396128a0... I do wonder if the same effect would result with any memory-intensive task. Reading and playing music would have to be one of the most intensive and enjoyable, however.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#136A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…
Why do all of these examples always focus on physical tasks that are obviously improved by practice. Playing a musical instrument like piano or playing a physical sport like tennis takes hand eye coordination, strength, agility and endurance. These examples are so horribly one-sided. Of course practicing a repetitive, manual example for 16 hours a day will make you better at it. That's called motor control skills and luckily for these mothers it has nothing to do with interest or liking what you're doing. Yes you can force someone to develop better motor control skills. But please don't start conflating that with "life skills" and "determination". Training your kid to be the best at fine motor control and manual dexterity is not exactly the way to be successful in the 21st century. They can learn that from video games.
And don't call this Chinese parenting, my Russian-Jewish mother made me study in very similar ways when I was younger. Fortunately, for me she realized that rote memorization is not the linchpin of a successful career, but at best a tiny foundation stone in your studies.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
You should leave in the "fuck you". That emotional response is apt in to convey how much this screws up people.
> You should leave in the "fuck you". Only if he'd say it to lionhearted in person, over a dinner conversation, per the HN etiquette guide. He's certainly within his rights to feel strongly about this, and to convey his belief in the harm caused by the demanding, uncompromising style of child-rearing; but there should be a way to do that with a modicum of tact.
I did not see the original format, but I have seen "You know what, fuck you!" said over the dinner table in such a situation. A short expletive is IMO appropriate for denoting intense emotional reaction.
It would seem odd if someone said "wow, this hurts would you mind backing your car off my leg" to the point where you might wonder if you had actually driven over them. However, "Back your @#%$ car off my #%^@&^ leg is less ambiguous". So, if your having dinner with the queen it's probably not appropriate but "I was deeply hurt by their actions" is somewhat emotionally ambiguous.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#138Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…
I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those parti…
I think klenwell has at least part of the answer:
Chua probably believes that its her strictness and strong principles that are leading her children to excel. And these have their role, no doubt. But I would propose, following Harris, it is her oppressive control of their social lives which is the much stronger factor.
Piano and violin are commonly played in isolation! This supports the Chinese parenting style in several ways:
• You don't have to practice with other musicians. Sure, a dedicated trumpeter spends a lot of time playing scales by himself, but to actually perform, you typically need to be in a band, orchestra, quartet or whatever. This means practicing as a group, and introduces opportunities for social interaction which might undermine parental control.
• Soloists don't have to share their glory. From what I can see, the Chinese drive to push their children to succeed has a lot to do with the way a successful child reflects on the parent. Shared success doesn't help the parent compete with other parents.
• It allows the parent to control the material. An awful lot of music is fundamentally rebellious, and the last thing a Chinese parent wants is their child learning jazz or rock or reggae and thinking about what it means.
I fact, I have to wonder if the point of pushing music so hard is to soak up the child's spare time, with an activity that leaves no time for a social life.
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#139Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…
Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)
#140I'm a constant immigrant and I can say this is not really a Chinese phenomena, but probably has more to do with immigrant mindset. I think because she is a successful driven professor she has upped the ante on this. So, in addition to what her mother considers successful she has added the cutthroat business and academic world of what is considered successful, then drummed that into her kids and got a book deal out of…
Classic joke: “What’s a Jewish dropout? A boy without a Ph.D.”