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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#131

Post by provolone »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #91
IAmGraydon wrote: post #83

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance.…

> Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? I don't intend to speak to various other merits (or the lack thereof) of Libra, but to this: yes? Of course! Transaction fees are huge. If you are operating in a razor-margin business, which more and more businesses are these days, then it adds up. FasTrak, the Bay Area toll processor, charges your card when you drop below a certain balance, and also cha…

There's already a feeless, decentralized cryptocurrency which settles transactions in less than a second.

https://nano.org

Libra's selling point will be FB's onboarding of users. It would not be unreasonable to expect dark patters there.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#132

Post by javert »

carlosdp wrote: post #79
javert wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is more decentralized than Facebook's coin no matter what because mining is controlled by an algorithm, rather than being an invite-only club.

In theory, sure. In practice, the miner implementations are the ones controlling the chain. The only difference is, I can name the CEOs and leaders of many of the Libra companies, I don't know who the leaders of the mining pools are.

Miners don't really have much control in the bitcoin ecosystem.

Also, the composition of large miners changes over time and can adjust organically, unlike membership in the Facebook coin cabal.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#133

Post by foldingmoney »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #83

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance.…

Imagine you live in Zimbabwe in 2008, or Argentina now, where people have no faith in their central banks to responsibly manage their money supply. Then ask yourself what's the value of a portable, anonymous, relatively stable currency that your government can't easily manipulate or confiscate.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#134

Post by ALittleLight »

lightgreen wrote: post #109
TomMckenny wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-m... Of course that only describes one "hypothetical" case but the mechanism is the same everywhere and for all pass through commodities. This reference in context has the virtue of being slightly humorous IMO.

The article seems not to mention currency conversion. So I’m sorry I still don’t understand how buying a condo helps converting rubles to dollars. I see how buying a condo helps to launder corrupt Russian money, but it is unrelated to the currency, it works the same regardless of what the currency is, dollars or libra. I don’t think Facebook (or whichever libra provider is) would allow users sending a million dollar…

I haven't read the article, just imagining how money laundering works, I assume you find a not too scrupulous guy with a nice apartment who needs cash. You give him some dirty money in exchange for the deed. You then take out a loan using your new place as collateral.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#135

Post by unwrap »

carlosdp wrote: post #86
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. What are some of the biggest positive consequences potentially offered by Libra in your opinion?

Literally what they say it's designed for: giving access to the digital economy to the 500m+ people in emerging markets that have internet + phone, but no banking services.

I am confused. I live in a country with "banking services", but almost nobody here uses them. We get paid on debit cards, and then we immediately withdraw the sum in cash. We pay for everything in cash, why would we ever switch to something different? I can only see the negative consequences: the usual privacy implications (some guy can see what I spend my money on); the danger of not being able to spend money at all if they decide so (like the famous Visa/MasterCard WikiLeaks fiasco); fees (2-3% on every purchase? No, thank you.)

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#136

Post by unwrap »

mbesto wrote: post #68
javert wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if it isn't fully apparent, the people can vote out a president that controls the Fed. The president of the United States does not control the Fed, if that's what you're saying. The current U.S. president is extremely unhappy with the current Fed chairman and has repeatedly demanded that the Fed alter its policies, to no avail. > Also, the Fed is US only...so there's that The U.S. dollar is pretty global.

> The current U.S. president is extremely unhappy with the current Fed chairman and has repeatedly demanded that the Fed alter its policies, to no avail. And yet he nominated him. What's your point? AFAIK he also technically has the power to fire him too. > The U.S. dollar is pretty global. Can you use the dollar to buy food at a foodstand in Germany? No. Just because certain aspects of the global economy are driven…

>Can you use the dollar to buy food at a foodstand in Germany

I don't know about Germany, but most places you can easily convert it to local currency right around the corner. Not many currencies can boast of something like that.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#137

Post by sophiebits »

qwertox wrote: post #121

Very telling that his article is hosted on facebook.com instead of libra.org. It kind of proves that the separation between Facebook and Libra is nothing but a lie. He just doesn't get it and he never will.

It isn’t an Official Facebook Announcement though. Think of it more like a Medium post.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#138

Post by seventhtiger »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #83

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance.…

Large parts of the world have no access to banking and can never convert from cash to digital currency. How easily can you transfer money to random individual in random developing countries who might offer their digital labor?

If they are paid in Libra, and can pay in Libra, they become part of the global economy.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#140

Post by TomMckenny »

lightgreen wrote: post #109
TomMckenny wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-m... Of course that only describes one "hypothetical" case but the mechanism is the same everywhere and for all pass through commodities. This reference in context has the virtue of being slightly humorous IMO.

The article seems not to mention currency conversion. So I’m sorry I still don’t understand how buying a condo helps converting rubles to dollars. I see how buying a condo helps to launder corrupt Russian money, but it is unrelated to the currency, it works the same regardless of what the currency is, dollars or libra. I don’t think Facebook (or whichever libra provider is) would allow users sending a million dollar…

Assuming they wanted to prevent large transactions, how will they? Is Facebook planing to be solely responsible for clearing every transaction?

Because the article literally says they plan "gradually transitioning to a permissionless state" and "Facebook will not control the network".

And, not that this is their plan anyway, but how could they prevent Libra's from crossing borders if it is permissionless?

And even if there were a limit on transfers somehow. A limit, by the way, on an automated system that presumably will involve large sellers with large volume. A limit which the word "permissionless" makes impossible. How will they prevent multiple wallets?

For laundering generally: you buy a thing with cash or the like from an incurious seller and sell it again. To grease the wheels, you could buy at over market value and sell under. Realestate is very popular, even driving up urban prices. But Persian rugs work just as well[1]. It's not currency change that is interesting but the erasing the origin of the purchasers money and replacing it with a legitimate origin: the sale of a condo.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/paul-manafort-and-t...

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