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Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

nytimes.com

131–140 of 170 posts

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#131
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the idea that only career-focused degrees are important. I studied math not to get a job with those skills, but because I enjoyed math and wanted to add to the world's knowledge. Money is a means to quality of life, sure. But you can't ignore the things that are part of the "quality" because they're not profitable.

Math isn't a non-career-focused degree. It's not as immediately applicable as engineering, sure, but it does lead pretty directly to good-paying jobs. What the OP is referring to is probably degrees such as theater, women's studies, philosophy, etc. Women's studies and philosophy have no real job potential, and while theater might, there's only a very small market for actors compared to the number of starlets who dre…

Pure maths is a non-career degree. Much like physics, philosophy, and history, the intent of most programs is to produce teachers and researchers. It just turns out that math is incredibly useful in many disciplines, so knowing high-level math makes you clearly employable.

Career-oriented math degrees are found in the engineering school.

The difference between math and philosophy is that having a pure maths degree will provide someone with a number of job prospects. But that isn't really the intent of math programs. I venture to guess most people studying math are like the GP and doing so because they enjoy math.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#132
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post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a significantly underappreciated cause of the student debt crisis. People love to harp on overpaid or unneeded administrators and buildings but they are largely unaware of how much state budget cuts have contributed to rising tuition. My public alma mater gets well under 10% of their funding from the state at this point.

Then what's the explanation for the thousands of private non-profit universities who have never received state funding?

They charge 2-3X higher tuition.

In the US, 4-year private (non-profit) college tuition averages somewhere around $60K/year, while 4-year public (in-state) college tuition is closer to $20K. Out of state tuition is much higher, and state schools make a "profit" on out of state student ($50K tuition). But they are still competitive because similar private colleges cost even more.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#133
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post #11

tldr The Academy of Art (San Francisco) is just another place that figured out how to scam the loan system by labeling itself a Graduate School where the $limits are higher. Yale is substantially lower priced so it's not about quality or student degree choice... it's about scamming.

Privately owned for-profit art school should be a giant warning to anyone thinking of enrolling.

No kidding. And foisting massive debt on art students just seems abusive.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when it’s free & the gov pays, they’ll make sure their budget is tight.

I can't tell if you meant for this to be sarcastic or not.

Lots of government-sponsored social programs manage on shoe-string budgets.

In the US, it really comes down to how Republicans feel about a program. The programs they hate are often forced to run at maximum efficiency because they face an large amount of scrutiny and budget instability.

It's the programs that Republican fail to scrutinize that become symbols of waste and mismanagement. The biggest and most obvious case is the military. I can't imagine the HHS being in a situation where they are forced by Congress to spend a few hundred million dollars on equipment they don't need, so it's given away, or having any project that costs $1,500,000,000,000.

I hate to be political like this, but it's an observable trend. Scrutiny over the use of public funds by officials is an efficient means of cost-control. But the country has an issue with selective enforcement based, it seems, on how much of a program's budget is funneled into the hands of private government contractors.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#135
post #118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most public colleges had significant funding guarantees in the State budget. A consequence of the 2008 financial crisis was that most State legislatures cut these obligations significantly. Accordingly, colleges had to raise tuition prices to compensate for the lost funding. I see student loans as basically a tax on the middle class. Get an education and a better job and pay an additional 6.5% tax on what you borrowe…

From what I've seen, State Universities seem to be awash in cash, and use it for enormous amounts of expensive construction.

Not exactly. Public uni finance is complicated. They are building, but in many cases, construction is required to compete for research grants. The chemical engineering labs built in the 50s are not always sufficient for modern science, for example. And in general, State Universities should be growing to serve their state's growing populations.

Where things get tricky is funding this. By and large, new construction is donor secured -- it's relatively easy to put a name on a building. But those donations come attached with strings, ie the name on the building. you can't reallocate it elsewhere. And donor funding for endowed faculty seats or administrative costs are not so frequent. Ongoing costs of running the university (salaries, utilities, maintenance, public safety, cleaning) are funded via three main sources: state funding (ever dwindling), tuition (ever growing but small overall) and research. Research is where state universities pull in the big bucks, but it also often requires expensive specialty capital equipment and facilities in which to install and run it. A rule of thumb is 30 percent of research grant is handed over to administrative overhead. That is effectively rent to pay for depreciation of the building.

tl;dr: expensive construction is required to further the mission of public universities, and doesn't mean general funds are available.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#136
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math isn't a non-career-focused degree. It's not as immediately applicable as engineering, sure, but it does lead pretty directly to good-paying jobs. What the OP is referring to is probably degrees such as theater, women's studies, philosophy, etc. Women's studies and philosophy have no real job potential, and while theater might, there's only a very small market for actors compared to the number of starlets who dre…

Pure maths is a non-career degree. Much like physics, philosophy, and history, the intent of most programs is to produce teachers and researchers. It just turns out that math is incredibly useful in many disciplines, so knowing high-level math makes you clearly employable. Career-oriented math degrees are found in the engineering school. The difference between math and philosophy is that having a pure maths degree wi…

>The difference between math and philosophy is that having a pure maths degree will provide someone with a number of job prospects. But that isn't really the intent of math programs.

I realize this, but the reality, as you stated yourself, is that it really does make you employable. The intent doesn't matter; the actual employability the degree confers does.

Theater degrees are basically the opposite here. The goal of that degree is surely to produce people who can act on stage (and have it transferrable to TV/movies too I suppose), but the reality is that it isn't very employable because there just aren't many job openings in that field compared to the number of people who want to work in it.

The intent doesn't matter if you're in control of allocating money for degrees for prospective students; the only thing that matters is how likely those borrowers will be to pay back their loans, or if this is a grant (i.e. free university), how likely this investment will be to produce someone who will pay back society with taxes. A degree that has a very poor likelihood of leading to a decent-paying job is not a good investment from this point-of-view, and the "intent" of that degree is irrelevant.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#137
This is a big reason I chose a cheap state university for my MBA and have paid for it in cash while taking classes part-time. I absolutely wasn’t willing to take out $165,000 at a 9% I test rate for some of the top tier programs and private schools.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not against free public education, and if I were starting a system from scratch I think making public universities free would be a great idea, for the reasons you point to. The current proposals as I understand them will subsidize tuition at the current, severely inflated rate, letting the colleges get away with their price gouging, and I want to see accountability there. I wonder if as an incremental step attac…

> The current proposals as I understand them will subsidize tuition at the current, severely inflated rate, letting the colleges get away with their price gouging This is great point in my opinion. Solving this issue in the real world is not simple, it comes down more to the political power of various competing factions than it does to coming up with a "big idea". Once you have a "big idea" (like free public college)…

Does the model from high school actually work that well?

High schools definitely seem cheaper (though I’m not sure how much cheaper), but I don’t think high schools have as much incentive to increase performance.

Regardless, I think the bigger problem here is we don’t really know what we want from colleges. They’re a status symbol, a rite of passage, a place to learn about the world, a place to try out adulthood, a place to party, a place to demonstrate intelligence, a place to learn career specific skills, and a place that promises to lift people out of poverty.

Those are all very different things.

I think we’d be better off if each of those goals were separated into different institutions. Colleges have become little utopian towns in which everything a young adult would want is wrapped into a single package. It’s like the space shuttle: it’s been designed by a committee that wants it to do everything. Expense and compromised performance is inevitable.

I think parents, kids and employers are as much to blame as the institutions themselves. You can get a lot of what college promises from different sources for a fraction of the cost. But we don’t accept the alternatives that should be driving the cost down because college is such a deeply ingrained institution, and is considered the only onramp for most forms of success. We accept the price because we feel like we have to.

The key to a good negotiation is the willingness to walk away. Until we accept that there are alternatives to the fantasy package that is modern day college, I don’t think the price will lower.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if they want government to pay for college then government should decide what is worthy of being paid for and how much. after all that is the attitude with regards to medical care. However I feel a better solution is for the government to still do it as loans but set the rates and required classes for each degree type. simply put there are valueless degree programs out there which only enrich the schools. Colleges wo…

I don't like the idea that only career-focused degrees are important. I studied math not to get a job with those skills, but because I enjoyed math and wanted to add to the world's knowledge. Money is a means to quality of life, sure. But you can't ignore the things that are part of the "quality" because they're not profitable.

I also have a math degree. If the prevailing model of a university education is to give you career skills that you'll use, well ok, I maybe use 10% of it.

But if you think of a degree as purely a signaling mechanism, then a pure math (or astrophysics or latin or whatever) degree is a very clear signal about what your brain is capable of.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#140
One thing I wish the article touched on: Why aren't we asking ourselves how current tuition rates got so high in the first place? If the federal government allows public universities to get away with creating administrative roles like 'Director of Picking Blue or Yellow Gatorade for the Football Team', that demands close to six-figure salaries, there's no wonder students have to incur debt to go to school. They aren't paying for their degree, they are paying the salaries of ballooning administrative chaff.
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