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There is no talent

timeless.judofyr.net

131–140 of 144 posts

Re: There is no talent

#131
post #76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No; height is a physical attribute. What are our brains made of again?

Do you ever refer to a person's brain size or weight? I don't understand your point. Sure, our brains are made out of matter - and are physical organs. However, the interesting thing about a brain is the way it functions; I think it very necessary to think in terms of physical prowess and mental or psychological prowess when considering whether someone's naturally talented. Being tall isn't a talent - it's an attribu…

An AMD K6 and a Core i7@2.67Ghz are roughly the same size and weight too.

Re: There is no talent

#132
post #90
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you serious? You think just any 4-year-old can play amazing music just because they have a lot of time to practice? I think it'd be better to ask for a scientific study on the subject for 4 year olds, except finding an acceptable sample size would be nigh impossible.

> You think just any 4-year-old can play amazing music just > because they have a lot of time to practice? Honestly, it's a pretty reasonable hypothesis. That's not to say that narrow-minded focus and incessant practice on a single skill at such a young age (or any age) produces a balanced or happy individual, but I have no problem believing that it would produce someone with skills far in excess of 99% of their peer…

There is obviously a natural advantage to people with a keen sense of hearing. The ability to differentiate tones, etc. However, I spent a lot of my teenage years playing bass guitar with no musical training (literally zero, I have no formal musical lessons to my name) and I learnt the ability to not only to decipher a songs bass music, but I was able to actual transcribe its tablature simply by ear - IE in many songs I could actually hear how the song was being played, not just the notes that were played.

My high school music teacher literally described me as tone and pitch deaf and basically declared me a write-off. I received virtually no tutelage, in fact I believe I spent a large majority of that class outside the class from being kicked out. My only musical ability was to moderately hold a beat. I opted out of music classes, and my brother had an old amp and had one of his friends bass guitars over and showed me to play something basic. I bought a bass guitar and practiced an hour or so a day just fucking around and trying to play along with songs.

My passion was always and still is writing. I spent much of my time writing video game reviews with my bass guitar strapped around my neck. 1/2 of my learning was simply keeping my instrument so close that it became my object of distraction.

Of stories I've heard of child prodigy are largely along the lines of a parent practicing in front of a child and when the parent is out of the room the child attempts to imitate their parent and doesn't do half bad.

On the subject of imitation I like to tell the story of my first golf swing. I was ~20, I'd never so much as held a golf club (a putter at crazy golf doesn't really count, 5ft vs 200 yards is a huge difference) before, but I've seen people golf all my life on TV and in real life from friends. I went to the driving range with my future-father-in-law and my future-brother-in-law, both knew I'd never really golfed but neither knew I'd never hit a golf ball in my life. I borrowed one of their drivers (thankfully my father-in-law is actually a left-handed golfer) and I figured no pressure, they expect I won't be good so just do it. I watched a few guys take swings and I did the same. I hit 250 yards (which is actually a semi-pro-range IIRC), and never looked back. I still regularly manage to get in the 230 range without any form of practice. I take a couple of trips to a driving range a year - if that. I didn't go this year and I don't expect my shot to be any under 200 when I go next year.

Peoples greatest failure is in failing before trying. If you have a bad mental attitude you will never succeed no matter how naturally 'talented' you are. However, the least talented person will always succeed if they have a strong mental attitude and a whole heap of perseverance.

There are a lot of fantastically talented and inspirational musicians out there who have failed miserably at what they could have been. A key example is Iggy Pop and the Stooges, who despite influencing countless musicians across almost a half-dozen decades, they never hit huge. Whilst KISS who basically everyone knows isn't the most musically talented band is ridiculously world famous, not because of talent but because of life-long hard work and not drug addled binges.

Re: There is no talent

#133
This is the old "Nature vs Nurture" debate unrolling again. The author is taking the side of Nurture: only training/time/study counts. And he is dead wrong.

Some people are better at some tasks than others. No amount of practice will allow a deaf (or even a tone-deaf) person to become a great musician. Tall people can clean the tops of refrigerators more easily than short people and that will always be true, no matter how much a short person practices.

Secondly, this obviousness extends to all genetic traits. We're (almost) all genetically different and it adds up to a tremendous difference in behavior.

This question really isn't worth discussing once identified: the "tabula rasa" theory supported by the OP is defunct.

Re: There is no talent

#134

You will look around and find other people at your age who are way better than you at playing guitar... in reality, all they did was starting earlier than you or have been spending more time doing it. I don't want to disagree with this essay... to first order. But it's important not to take the emphasis on passion too far. Because this hypothesis doesn't explain the existence of passionate but untalented people. Such…

The bottom line is that if you work hard enough you can compensate somewhat for lack of talent. You probably won't be the next Mozart or Einstein of your field, but the good news is that you don't have to be inorder to be very successful.

Re: There is no talent

#135

You will look around and find other people at your age who are way better than you at playing guitar... in reality, all they did was starting earlier than you or have been spending more time doing it. I don't want to disagree with this essay... to first order. But it's important not to take the emphasis on passion too far. Because this hypothesis doesn't explain the existence of passionate but untalented people. Such…

"Because this hypothesis doesn't explain the existence of passionate but untalented people. Such people exist. Dear god, do they exist. There are people who play a hell of a lot of guitar and are nevertheless not very good. There are people who write a lot of novels and stories but can't produce enjoyable prose, or sellable prose."

I'm kind of reminded of Malcom Gladwell's "Late Bloomers" piece[1]. Some people take very little time to become good. Some others learn by sheer trial and error, and it takes them a long time. Like as in decades.

[1] http://www.gladwell.com/2008/2008_10_20_a_latebloomers.html

Re: There is no talent

#136

This viewpoint always annoys me. It's great to think that work is all there is to it, but that's not true. You can become great at anything with practice, I do believe that. What I don't believe is that there's no such thing as talent. Take chess. You really think Magnus Carlsen has practiced less in his life than Anand? Practice is necessary to become great. Talent is necessary to become the best.

What annoys me most isn't the idea that anyone can do anything if they try hard enough. It's the corollary to it: if someone isn't successful, then they just aren't trying hard enough. People tend to underestimate the impact that outside influences can have.

Re: There is no talent

#137
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that things could be broken down so that anyone could understand. Those scenes in movies where the teacher finally breaks through to the kids by relating the subject matter to something that they care about may seem like bs, but I feel that approach really works. I think that is the foundation of the argument for smaller classroom sizes -- the teach can focus in on how to target each student's learning style i…

Most people can learn to be OK at most things, with enough time or a "breakthrough". A significantly smaller number can be great at them.

So are you saying that talent is when a person has passion for a subject and works hard at it?

Re: There is no talent

#138
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say being 6.9 feet tall is a talent for a basketball player?

Sure. I'd say that, all other things being equal, being tall gives an advantage to a basketball player. Therefore under lwhi's definition of talent, it counts. Why wouldn't it? I realize this may not match up with what people usually mean when they say talent, but I think this definition is more consistent and useful.

So would you say being born from rich parents is a talent?

Re: There is no talent

#139
Arnold and Bill both like to sing. Arnold sings in several groups (including a chorus), takes voice and ear-training lessons, and continually strives to improve. Bill sings in the same chorus as Arnold, but otherwise he doesn't practice. Nevertheless, Bill is a much better singer than Arnold.

If you haven't ever seen this phenomenon, you simply don't have much experience with activities that require both talent and skill in order to excel. You can't reach the highest levels without practice—Bill could never compete with Charlie, who has Bill's talent and works as hard as Arnold—but that's not enough. Talent and practice are both necessary to be the best, but neither one alone is sufficient.

Re: There is no talent

#140
post #42

I'm sure most of the people hanging out on HN have had experience with the word "computer genius". It's one of those terms I love to hate. People who make that assessment typically have no skill in the area so really have no basis for comparison. When someone calls someone else a computer genius I typically roll my eyes mentally, because those of us in the field understand it's mostly hard work and interest. However…

This book really resonated with me as well. The part I found most amazing was the story about the man (I forgot his name) who claimed he could "make a chess grand master," put out a classified ad saying the same, found a woman who agreed and then proceeded to have children and groomed them into chess champions. Anecdotal, but it's definitely food for thought.
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