Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

workingwa.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 718 posts

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#131

Post by jopsen »

atom-morgan wrote: post #97

Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.

No, this is why you have regulation, and need unions.

Consumers have enough parameters to optimize for: price of groceries, cost of delivery, fair trade, availability of products, delivery speed, convenience, availability of delivery slots, the list is long.

Consumers are relatively good at optimizing for cost, not perfect -- but asking for more than that is unrealistic.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#132

Post by paulgb »

lenticular wrote: post #83
dhimes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds…

That's a shame. I wonder if customers have any recourse? I'd feel absolutely defrauded if I found out a tip I made through a service like this was (effectively) going to the operator rather than the person who the app represented it as going to.

I don't think "oh the tip went to the contractor we just lowered their wages by the same amount" sounds convincing in a court room.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#133

Post by EpicEng »

warp_factor wrote: post #107
EpicEng wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only hurting the workers; their employer's don't care.

That's exactly what they want you to think, and that's why this whole tipping nonsense continues. If you stop tipping, Workers will not accept to work for low wages anymore. Bu continuing to tip, you indirectly hurt workers.

>Workers will not accept to work for low wages anymore.

Right, because most service workers have a plethora of options, right? Tipping is a social construct that I'm fine with. I'm also open to the argument against it. I don't think it should give employers a pass on paying minimum wage.

The reality is that you are never going to convince enough people to stop tipping and, even if you did, you'd simply drive down the wages of people who already don't make much money.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#134

Post by vkou »

jonesdc wrote: post #123
nsenifty wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not "socially" mandatory as much as the workers suffer otherwise because they are paid less than minimum wage.

If an employee who earns tips does not make the equivalent of minimum wage pay his or her hours worked, then the employer is required to pay difference (i.e., employees will be paid at least minimum wage for their work)

Not tipping still makes the workers still suffer, though, because with tips, many of many of them make above minimum wage.

Honestly, in the general case, I don't understand how anyone can manage to live on minimum wage, unless they live in a barracks, their mother's basement, or under a bridge.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#135

Post by quink »

atom-morgan wrote: post #97

Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.

Consumers pay a tip, expecting it to go to staff members directly. This steals the tip back from the staff members, directly contrary to the customer’s expectation.

If you change what’s essentially the dictionary definition of the product being sold, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Except it’s really just a rock.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#136

Post by owlninja »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #72
adetrest wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is a software developer with companies fighting over them. Some really don't have options, and the choice is either get no income and be unable to pay your bills, or get screwed over but get some money to pay the bills.

> Some really don't have options. Unfortunately, in this economy, it's probably more accurate to say "most people really don't have options" rather than "some"

I thought the labor market was actually very strong right now?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#137

Post by wonderwonder »

nck4222 wrote: post #63
nsenifty wrote: post #22

This is why the tipping system in the US is absurd. The whole "you must tip because they get paid peanuts" argument is a circular logic. How about making sure that the worker gets paid fairly by their employer and customers can then optionally tip for outstanding service?

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.

I agree with you that tipping is a consequence of the system but I would argue the actual logic behind tippipng is that it allows employers to pay their employees less. Per federal law, tips can be used by an employer to satisfy the difference between the actual paid wage and the federal minimum. I would be very surprised if it was a waiters lobbying group pushing for this type of legislation. Several studies have also shown that there is very little relation between the quality of service provided and the amount of the tip.

Tipping really is a method for the employer to hold onto as much money as possible at the expense of staff.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#139

Post by Verdex »

dependsontheq wrote: post #122
Verdex wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, personally, when I go to mcdonalds, I like to pay the guy at the register, the people cooking, the manager, and the unfortunate individual on trash duty all separately. Additionally, I refuse (on basic principle) to eat at any restaurant where I haven't mapped out their entire supply infrastructure. I made myself an app that keeps track of how much I spend at each of these restaurants in any given month and then…

“the customer can decide how much he wants to pay everybody in the supply chain” sounds a bit to too much like a possible pitch for a startup.

True. But lets be clear. I'm tipping everyone in the supply chain. They also get paid by their employer.

... You know now that I'm talking about it. I don't think I tip stockholders of C-Corps. I did consider S-Corp stockholders and decided that they probably shouldn't get a tip, but C-Corps stockholders are kind of part of a financial supply chain if you think about it.

Now that we're on the topic, can anything think of anyone else I'm leaving out? I wouldn't want to ignore the hard work of the people who make my daily life possible.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#140

Post by saagarjha »

wilkskyes wrote: post #111

What are the poor legitimately at fault for then? I'm tired of this implication that the poor can never be at fault for anything, because they are so poor. It is an overly simplified sympathy that doesn't always reflect reality.

What should they be at fault for?
Post reply on HN