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Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

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Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#131

Post by heroyang »

pteredactyl wrote: post #123
kadendogthing wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so you know, your entire comments reacts of bitterness and ignorance. You think their view point on art is stuck in the 20th century, but that's only because you clearly don't understand the type of community you're dealing with. In fact your view point seems extremely myopic and appears to be constrained around your own motivations and hobbies. >But why is tech framed the opposite of art? You are fundamentally…

I'm bitter and ignorant? I've lived in these communities of 'creatives'. For years. I know its a lot of drugs, idealism and not a lot of action. Except for complaining about how wronged they've been by the system. Is that your 'another world is possible'? So maybe I am bitter... Don't get me wrong, the system is fucked up in many ways. And I agree with your distinction of a grey blandness that permeates the tech cult…

It's always the same everywhere I go, "artists" invading our nice clean spaces, begging for handouts(heroin money). I live near a "creative space" and it's just gross white people puking on each other. I'm going to start calling the police on them and laugh as they are beaten and hopefully shot.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#132

Post by omer_balyali »

woodpanel wrote: post #120
keiferski wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and Berlin was a counter-cultural center in the 1920s. I'm not really sure what point you're getting at. Berlin is prized by its inhabitants for its unique culture - a modern, western city that for nearly 20 years was dominated by artistic culture. It has nothing to do with the "original inhabitants vs. the new transplants" and very little to do with NIMBYism from property owners, especially considering the the ov…

Connecting today’s or even 1970s counter-culture with that of the 1920s is really far fetched as most counter-culturalists where driven out shortly after (see 1930s) and never came back. Following your logic, that it shouldn’t matter where new tenants come from - isn’t that what anti-gentrification activism effectively is about? Prohibiting new tenants to move in?

Understanding context is one of the most important thing, when you're trying understand the content/situation.

You repeatedly write that this happens because of some snowflakes' NIMBYism. Which is definitely not.

If we were talking about any other city in the world, whatever you're saying would make sense... because from the outside it looks like "oh the people who moved to city center doesn't want anybody else to move there".

That's not the case with Berlin.

Maybe you missed the topic recently but there was WWII and then East Germany, with Berlin Wall, death strip in between and East German State Police Stasi... and people who wants to escape from East.

Of course all of these happened in the city center, because the wall separated the city from the middle of it, and the areas once city center, become the dangerous ghettos.

The canals in Kreuzberg has become grave for some immigrant (and German alike) children, because it belonged to the East. If any child accidentally falls in the waters and scream for help nobody could save them. Because anyone who would enter the canals would be shot by East German police. And they did. And people couldn't save their kids from the waters, after these incidents happened. This is just one of the disadvantages of living next to a death strip, in the epicentre of the nuclear cold war.

Because of these dangerous properties, the place was cheap. And people in more "hip" areas didn't wanted to rent their flats to young people, artists, punks etc. So these people find home in Kreuzberg.

But yeah, feel free to forget about these context and try to blindly invalidate peoples experiences.

---

I gave the same example in another comment: There are many shops in Kreuzberg, which are located there for let's say 50-60 years. There are grocery stores, bakeries, markets, shoe repair shops, cheap quality restaurants, local bookstores etc.

But these people has to go now, because there is better buyer, who can afford the prices that these people can not. Or they have to increase their prices too. You were buying a croissant for 0,40€... now it's 4€. But hey, you can like our instagram page!

Now you're accusing these people of b+ching about the development, and you think they're greedy and they get what they wanted, now they're protesting so others can not get what they have?

Or do they want to live in the area, where they've been living for the last 60 years, and experienced many many disadvantages of the area?

The area was ghetto, so unwanted people located there. Now the area is hip again (after 100 years), and the people who lives there is unwanted again.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#133

Post by maxsilver »

badpun wrote: post #44
dao- wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: Very much so. Been to a panel discussion organized by them. The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Doesn't matter whether the pay checks come from Google at the end of the day.

> The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Sort of understood, given that Germans are a nation of life-long renters (as opposed to home-owners). Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter.

> Gentrification is generally great for the owner

Gentrification is great for wealthy landowners. For poor/middle-class homeowners (in the USA, anyway), there is about 100 asterisks attached to that "great". And in various situations, gentrification can hurt poor/middle-class people even if they own a property.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#134

Post by omer_balyali »

woodpanel wrote: post #120
keiferski wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and Berlin was a counter-cultural center in the 1920s. I'm not really sure what point you're getting at. Berlin is prized by its inhabitants for its unique culture - a modern, western city that for nearly 20 years was dominated by artistic culture. It has nothing to do with the "original inhabitants vs. the new transplants" and very little to do with NIMBYism from property owners, especially considering the the ov…

Connecting today’s or even 1970s counter-culture with that of the 1920s is really far fetched as most counter-culturalists where driven out shortly after (see 1930s) and never came back. Following your logic, that it shouldn’t matter where new tenants come from - isn’t that what anti-gentrification activism effectively is about? Prohibiting new tenants to move in?

The real NIMBYists are the ones who pushed these people to ghettos, next to Berlin Wall.

I want my city to be better and i want workers to do this. -Immigrants? Not in my backyard.

I want my city to be culturally rich and i want to be proud of the art that created in my city. -Punks? Unemployed artists? Not in my backyard.

Because of this, these people located in Kreuzberg... many many years ago, before the Wall even came down.

Now the wall came down and the same people say:

I want to have a nice and cheap(er than my area) office next to Landwehrkanal in Kreuzberg. -Immigrants and artists next to my office? Not in my backyard.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#135

Post by ThePhysicist »

keiferski wrote: post #60
ThePhysicist wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know, it has probably more to do with the fact that it's Google trying to open something there. Otto Bock (market leader in prosthetics and wheelchairs) just bought a old brewery for several hundred million € in Prenzlauer Berg [1] with the goal to convert it into a research center. I don't remember any kind of protest or outrage against that. 1: https://www.ottobock.com/en/press/press-releases/ottobock-re...

1. Prenzlauerberg is known as an upper-middle class/family/“safe” area, not a haven for artists or counterculture. 2. A prosthetics company is a far cry from the omnipresent, omnipotent entity that is Google. Everyone on planet Earth knows what Google is. Many people take issue with their behavior.

1. Without wanting to offend I think it's quite funny that you think so, because before Prenzlauer Berg became what it is today it was one of the most prominent "art districts" in Berlin, and many artists had their workshops there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenzlauer_Berg). Now as you say it's mostly an area where hip and affluent families live in the many luxuriously renovated old buildings (Altbau). Seems gentrification has progressed so much that people don't even remember what the neighborhood used to be before. That said, the process wasn't triggered by large tech companies setting up shop there, more by the choices of affluent people moving to Berlin from other parts of Germany. Swabians are particularly hated for allegedly moving there in order to live in a big city but then slowly turning that city into the small Swabian town they moved away from in the first place (I don't think it's a very fair judgement though).

2. That's what I said, and I think it's sad that Google won't open the campus there, as I think the area and the city could profit from it.

Also, this is a personal opinion but I think Kreuzberg is far from being a "haven for artists or counterculture". Already now the district has some of the highest rents in Berlin and many flats are being rented out as AirBnBs (often by the same people that complain about companies gentrifying the area). Also, the counterculture that you're describing can be quite snobbish and exclusive as well, at least for people that don't conform to the Berlin "hipster" ideal. I think Berlin really needs more corporations and large enterprises that set up shop there and create jobs, as the startup ecosystem has so far failed to deliver much in terms of well-paying jobs (at least if you don't want to work for Zalando). Just my 2 cents.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#136

Post by de_Selby »

keiferski wrote: post #62
bko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

I used to agree with you, but considering the fact that San Francisco has gone from “semi-affordable haven for weirdos and off-beat culture” to “single most expensive city in America filled primarily with tech workers and the homeless” in less than 30 years, I don’t any more. Semi-similar situations for lower Manhattan, Paris, East London, ad infinitum. A place can have a unique culture that’s worth maintaining. How…

Not even 30 years, more like 15.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#137

Post by C1sc0cat »

chobeat wrote: post #93
C1sc0cat wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well your not welcome (google in this case) but that doesn't give you the right to deny others who might want to move to berlin and work for google - that sound s like UKip policy in the uk. And what does having a stock ticker matter presumably you took advantage of the German miracle and the rise of VW and others.

This would go against the interests of the locals, that, frankly, in a community should come before the interests of some programmer that would find a job somewhere else.

Er freedom of movement of labour is one of the core principles of the EU.

So its all right for Germany to benefit from freetrade but not allow freedom of movement - that is what the Brexit and UKip want.

So comrade when did you start colluding with the boss class

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#138

Post by blablabla123 »

avip wrote: post #127
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.

I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.

Yup, on both sides of the argument. But in any way, there is some deeper truth here, the whole discussion went ad hominem already years ago.

Also it sucks for "the good guys" - literally - that tech has a bad reputation in that sense and on the other hand this is improving only so slowly.

On the other hand it's of course naive to say that artists are good people per se, that is just not true. This is almost biblical, considering that artists are always poor and thus good. We all need to progress, not only people in tech.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#139

Post by flas9sd »

detaro wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #3

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any Berlin residents. Vocal NIMBY minority driving away new jobs and beneficial development? Genuine victory in preserving local culture and character? Bit of both? Other?

I feel like Google could have avoided this easily by picking more or less any other location in the city. Even ~1 km from their planned location there are large tech offices that didn't get hit by this level of opposition, right next to te main public transport link, because they are a bit out of the way there, but Google wanted to be right in the middle of it. Further away it's even less of a problem (one of the slo…

The building is adjacent to a lot of housing with a diverse crowd, it borders to north-Neukölln on "the kanal", what is compared to central Kreuzberg a classical working-man district that undergoes it's own challenges. The whole area has more of a homely vibe. I concur with the ~1km. Towards the Spree river its presence would've been easily tolerated (there are business parks), Mozilla has its office there too. Not to speak of anything Berlin central or indeed Adlershof. The Ab/Umspannwerk is a nice building of course, Berlin has a lot of these now obsolete electric facilities. A datacenter provider and other tech shops reside there for years, so did local grown startups. I wonder if the connectivity played any role, but there's lots of metro-fiber under the curbs in that part of town anyway. I still think there is opportunity for Google to pick the right location without community backlash not too far away.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#140

Post by manfredo »

eropple wrote: post #63
bko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is unwelcome , and no, nobody is obligated to make you feel welcome . There are cases where not making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not, frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock tick…

> This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is downright mendacious

It's also the same line of thinking behind Trump's wall and hostility to immigration in general: "people I don't like should stay out."

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