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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

131–140 of 436 posts

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#131

Why do the 1.4 billion people living there put up with it in the first place? Why they have just made Jinping a lifetime president? Why are they fine with their own Chinese tech companies doing this already? It would help to understand the geopolitical causes of this environment instead of the constant faux outrage over Google doing what any business does, which is provide services in accordance to the laws where the…

it is common for people to genuinely not care about the freedoms they are denied.

for instance, there is likely a law on the books in the USA which prohibits you from having your cattle graze on various lands. you would be incrementally more free if there was not that law, but do you care? no, the issue is not relevant to your life, nor is it relevant to any life you could imagine yourself realistically having from the starting point of the present moment. if you were a cattle farmer the issue would be more salient -- but there's still no guarantee that you would be railing against the law.

now, imagine that the prospect of democracy was what was forbidden, as it is in china. it's abstract, and the benefits are purely hypothetical for the chinese -- but there are hypothetical liabilities that come with democracy too, which might seem just as salient if you don't start from a position of being in favor of democracy.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#132
Google has two choices:- to be outside - looking in, or to be inside - and engaged. It is axiomatic that China has roots in an oppressive communist titled government. I say titled because it was not communist in the classical sense, any more than the former USSR was communist - again in title only. China will gradually change and adapt - converge, to a more truly representative government as the middle class expands and the government learns they have nothing to fear but fear itself. Both former communist countries are doing far better than under their former party dictatorships.

I suggest everyone read "Gulag Archipelago"

I hope North Korea also is also opened up - engaged, in a similar manner.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#133
There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them.

So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned about both freedom of speech and privacy ...

I couldn't give a crap about what companies are active in China and complying with their local regulations. That Google took a stand showed they valued freedom of speech above their bottom line, but now if they are going back in, we can talk about the primary concern with Google ...

Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity and if they do this, we now have concrete proof that they don't have values that are above their bottom line.

Therefore we have a problem and the next time the EU slaps them with another multi-billion fine for violating EU's anti-trust or privacy laws, I'll cheer them for it, because it's all about the dough.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#134

Google has two choices:- to be outside - looking in, or to be inside - and engaged. It is axiomatic that China has roots in an oppressive communist titled government. I say titled because it was not communist in the classical sense, any more than the former USSR was communist - again in title only. China will gradually change and adapt - converge, to a more truly representative government as the middle class expands…

"...doing far better than under their former party dictatorships..."

Not trying to split hairs or anything, but China is "...under their former party dictatorship..." It's the same party, the only difference is that the leaders today are mostly trained engineers and scientists instead of the mainly political thinkers who preceded them.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#135
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. This exactly. I would even make a stronger case. It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power. This is a failure of US and EU governments. They should pressure China to liberalize their government and provide a level economic playing field (it is insane what China gets away wit…

What people here don't understand is that the talk about censorship is of less than secondary importance there. China's priority here is totally not to censor them, it is to conduct the "handshaking ritual" and have them becoming subject under China's "law." A "blood pack" - making them partners in crime. The same was with Yahoo. They came to China talking only about "search," but got asked about "personal data of al…

Is the book available in English? I could only find passing references in news articles, but not the actual book.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#136
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. This exactly. I would even make a stronger case. It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power. This is a failure of US and EU governments. They should pressure China to liberalize their government and provide a level economic playing field (it is insane what China gets away wit…

Why not both? - American companies stop facilitating totalitarian regimes - World governments also prompt totalitarian regimes to move towards democracy

> Why not both?

By definition, “companies” are incentivized to prioritize capital pursuit over moral pursuit. It’s actually the most fundamental part of the whole concept.

Many democratic governments in the world, and particularly the most wealthy and powerful ones, are run by people who are (to a large unmeasurable extent) incentivized to do what companies want them to do. This is not a fundamental concept of a democratic government, but as long as the electorate fails to take responsibility for their own government’s behavior, the incentives remain in the company’s favor, which doesn’t make a very good case for democracy.

Democracy is a very slippery concept. America, for example, is well understood to not be a democracy, but it’s people seem to have convinced themselves it is. These kinds of miscalculations are really at the root of “why not”.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#137

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China

there is no different standard. it is unethical to aid totalitarian states in their oppression of their people.

that standard is crystal clear, and google is on the wrong side of it.

waffling regarding corporate responsibility is irrelevant because the question of whether the actor is a corporation or not has nothing to do with the standard itself. once again: the moral issue is very clear on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

selling widgets to the chinese is not in violation of that standard. offering a product that is neutered so as to be a tool of oppression is in clear violation of the standard.

the question of china using these tools to oppress their population is not up for debate. china is a police state. for ethnic minorities like the uighurs, the falun gong, the chinese muslims, etc, that police state is operationalized to eradicate and prevent any presence in society.

this is not right. it is not right to help the chinese state keep groups of people subjugated and starving.

the apologists should be ashamed. google should be ashamed. google employees should be ashamed, and outraged.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#138

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

> we now have concrete proof that they don't have values that are above their bottom line.

I had the same reaction. Back in the day, there was this common belief tech companies had a certain set of values and would draw a line. Now? It's always about the money.

Welcome to the decline of Western Civilization.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#139

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

[deleted]

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#140

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

"...Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity..."

In fairness, you never had a problem with that privacy invasion before. You still respected them in spite of the fact that they were Gestapo-like privacy invaders. As evidenced by your claim that, "...the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google..."

I've always been wary of Google. They are not our friends. They are here trying to make money off of us. They would sell any one of us out to any number of governments if they were asked.

And they would do so without hesitation.

That's the reason that we need to be mindful of what we disclose to companies like Google, Facebook, et al.

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