Live data from Hacker News

Ursula Le Guin has died

nytimes.com

131–140 of 197 posts

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed reading The Dispossessed , though I have also been known to characterize it as, "A Sci-Fi universe where communism actually works, hence the 'Fi' part." However, I've recently read Thomas Sowell's book about the original formulation of Marxian economics and philosophy, and I've come to the conclusion that the technology of the late 21st century might possibly enable a viable communal society through the rep…

Iain M. Bank's Culture is perhaps my favourite example of a "working" communist society - but it does rely on "magic" technology, engineering of its inhabitants to be nicer and ultimately on god-like AIs to actually run things. Most humans in the stories are effectively pets of the AIs - pets who are very well looked after, and who can leave the Culture if they want (which the vast majority don't - of course) but whe…

I seem to remember an interview where Banks described the Culture as "anarchism within, socialism without," but yes, it very much depends on being post-scarcity and transhumanist. I wonder what Banks would have made of "Meditations on Moloch"? I could see the Culture's progenitors using something like that as their manifesto.

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#132
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the whole point of the novel is that neither system really works very well! I think you're doing it a disservice to characterize it in that way. She did her best to imagine a communist system that was nearly ideally designed and it still fails in so many ways.

But the whole point of the novel is that neither system really works very well! I think you're doing it a disservice to characterize it in that way. Given the tremendous increase in the standard of living of so many people, Capitalism does a pretty darn good job. I think in that by grouping it in a pair where "neither system really works very well," you and LeGuin would be "doing it a disservice to characterize it in…

> Given the tremendous increase in the standard of living of so many people, Capitalism does a pretty darn good job. I think in that by grouping it in a pair where "neither system really works very well," you and LeGuin would be "doing it a disservice to characterize it in that way."

It worth noting that Marx was tremendously excited about capitalism: The first part of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto contains a lot of praise to capitalism - some barbed, some delivered straight. For example:

> The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.

and:

> The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?

Socialism was conceived in it's modern form as a direct result of optimism over the rapid growth in productivity brought about by capitalism, and Marx shared that view: He saw capitalism as both absolutely necessary to bring the material wealth that could make redistribution possible, as well as the eventual catalyst for socialist revolution (and in doing so repeatedly warned against trying to push or socialism in poor underdeveloped countries other than as part of a larger wave of revolutions). He also praised capitalism for doing away with a lot of other outmoded aspects of society: to him it was the best so far, and a tremendous step forward for humanity.

The idea that wanting socialism necessarily means thinking capitalism is awful needs to die. But neither is there any reason to think that socialism in any form will be perfect either, even if you want socialism. Any given system can have flawed implementations, or outright fail. Marx himself as early as 1845 (in The German Ideology) warned, for example, that socialist revolutions somewhere underdeveloped would be doomed to failure: If you redistribute somewhere where redistribution just makes want common, he said, the old class struggles would just reassert themselves. Anyone who seriously cares about any given system needs to be open to considering how and why it might fail if they want to make it a success.

As such, Le Guin stands with people like George Orwell in an important but small tradition of socialist literary writers open to showing the dangers too.

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#133
post #102

I first read “The Dispossessed” in a hospital delivery room while waiting for my first child to be born. The way Le Guin paints an entire life’s dreams and hopes and their external bounds left an indelible impression. There is a birth scene in the book that I remember with as much emotion as the actual birth the same night. On a more general level, “The Dispossessed” is a good example of the paradigm shift that Le Gu…

I started "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" last week. I closed it after two or three pages because I couldn't stand the computer speak.

There are a lot of classics with that same issue. Asimov's Foundation Series even has computer readers are just one line of a book at a time. And he thought this would cause people to not see their progress in the book and cause them not to read as much.

I just look past the details and for Foundation Series it is worth it. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" to me wasn't worth it, but I really liked "Starship Troopers" and think that is Heinlein's one book I recommend to everyone.

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the linked article mentions, The Dispossessed was inspired by the works of Peter Kropotkin, the prominent anarcho-communist.

I missed that in the article, thanks! Indeed the anarchism on display in the Dispossessed was very collectivist, I hadn’t realized how directly it was based on Kropotkin. My experience of anarchists is such that I happily group most anarchists together, and place them ideologically far, far away from Stalinists. Are you thinking Kropotkin’s ideals are close enough to communism that I shouldn’t belabor the distinction…

Plenty of communists are far closer to anarchists than to the Stalinists, and historically plenty of people have applied both labels to themselves.

E.g. the founder of (left)-libertarianism was an anarcho-communist (Joseph Déjacque) [1], and among early libertarian socialists, you for example would fine some the earliest leading figures in the Socialist League, which counted Eleanor Marx and Friedrich Engels among their members.

> I missed that in the article, thanks! Indeed the anarchism on display in the Dispossessed was very collectivist, I hadn’t realized how directly it was based on Kropotkin.

I find that a very curious statement. Kropotkin explicitly criticized the collectivist nature of the anarchism of Proudhon and Bakunin as simply being a different type of wage system that he believed would eventually lead to centralization again, and promoted local self-sufficiency etc. as means to explicitly counter collectivism. Here's an interesting overview of the history of anarchist communism (or communist anarchism) [2] that covers both Kroptkin and Dejacques.

Anarchist-communism is specifically in opposition to collectivist tendencies in many anarchist ideologies, and explicitly rejecting anarchist systems that are based on exchange of value or other ways of letting some party assert authority over another's access to goods, just like Marx (e.g. based on Marx mentions in Critique of the Gotha Programme, for example, that set out "higher" forms of socialism as doing away with means of exchange).

[1] This is the first use of the term libertarian in a political sense: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/joseph-dejacque-on-t...

[2] http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alain-pengam-anarchis...

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#135
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Star Trek, there were many more items of Fi. Then you have Star Wars which really doesn't give a ####.

>Then you have Star Wars which really doesn't give a ####. Star Trek just pretends to, though. Most of its fictional conceits are barely thought out, including its post-scarcity communist utopia. Does the Force really make any less sense than Q? It's all space fantasy.

Most of classical Star Trek (TOS, TNG, Voyager, and large parts of DS9) consists mostly of self-contained morality plays where the sci-fi just provides a setting. Some of those morality plays are related to the science part - notably a lot of the issues around the morality of treatment of Data and holograms. But most of it could be set in any time period. The Sci-Fi setting just made it easier to juxtapose things without running into "but that's not how it was then/there" objections and allowing more extreme contrasts.

Enterprise, parts of DS9, Discovery and the new movies have largely done away with that format. It's a very sharp relief.

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#136
post #95
post #9

I am not trying to say that I was happy, during those weeks of hauling a sledge across an ice-sheet in the dead of winter. I was hungry, overstrained, and often anxious, and it all got worse the longer it went on. I certainly wasn't happy. Happiness has to do with reason, and only reason earns it. What I was given was the thing you can't earn, and can't keep, and often don't even recognize at the time; I mean joy. —T…

There's a lot in The Left Hand of Darkness , but the thing I got out of it is there are some things that can't be learned by being told the answer. I could tell you what the left hand of darkness is right now, but if you didn't read the book, you'd be none the wiser. Some things can only be taught through experiencing it yourself, or through the proxy of storytelling. Storytelling is the greatest tool we have for pas…

"nothing worth knowing can be taught" - Oscar Wilde

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" last week. I closed it after two or three pages because I couldn't stand the computer speak.

There are a lot of classics with that same issue. Asimov's Foundation Series even has computer readers are just one line of a book at a time. And he thought this would cause people to not see their progress in the book and cause them not to read as much. I just look past the details and for Foundation Series it is worth it. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" to me wasn't worth it, but I really liked "Starship Troopers" a…

The only other Heinlein book I would recommend beside Starship Troopers (which everyone reads different than Heinlein intended I guess) is "Stranger in a Strange Land".

Re: Ursula Le Guin has died

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed reading The Dispossessed , though I have also been known to characterize it as, "A Sci-Fi universe where communism actually works, hence the 'Fi' part." However, I've recently read Thomas Sowell's book about the original formulation of Marxian economics and philosophy, and I've come to the conclusion that the technology of the late 21st century might possibly enable a viable communal society through the rep…

We didn’t really learn much about the communists in the Dispossessed. Most of the novel is about the anarchists. Anarchists generally get along with communists even worse than capitalists do, so I don’t think this distinction is just pedantry.

Anarchism is a subset of communism. In the 20th century, for obvious reasons, both the Soviet and American propaganda machines sought to associate "communism" with authoritarian collectivism, when in reality it's a much wider umbrella.
Post reply on HN