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Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

pnas.org

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Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#131

Post by baobrain »

shock wrote: post #21
jtmarmon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what P-values are for

Perhaps explain how P-values are to be used in this case, for the lay of us.

DISCLAIMER: EXTREME SIMPLIFICATION

Given a statement and a sample with a mean and standard deviation, what is the probability that you manage to choose a sample with that mean and SD, assuming the statement is true?

For example, my statement is the average weight of chicken an american eats every month is 20 pounds and my sample gives me a mean of 16 and SD of 4. The p value is the probability of choosing a group of people who eat on average 16 pounds of chicken every month if the REAL mean is actually 20.

Edit to answer question: The p value doesn't "care" about the sample size - it is adjusted and remains accurate. And so if the p value if high for the sample in the study, that means it is a likely occurrence and the result is not very noteworthy.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#132

Post by arkades »

nikolay wrote: post #115
fencepost wrote: post #13

Okay, so ibuprofen impacts testicular function, acetaminophen/paracetamol causes muting of emotional response (along with the liver toxicity), many other painkillers are related to ibuprofen, and opiates are Right Out. Is aspirin at least reasonably safe as long as the blood thinning isn't a problem?

In Europe, there's Aspirin-C and Upsarin, basically, pure aspirin with vitamin C, which eliminates the stomach lining issues [0]! I have no idea why this is not offered in America. Maybe, because there's no way to make money from patents and stuff! [0]: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-galland-md/aspirin-and-vi...

I wrote a lengthy post about how ridiculous this was, until I got to the citations section, which I then dutifully hunted down.

I must in all fairness upgrade this from “HuffPost-endorsed vitamin cult quackery” to “plausible, if supported by weak studies.”

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#133

Post by 3pt14159 »

function_seven wrote: post #66
3pt14159 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't. People talking about P values forget about p-hacking and selection bias. Any scientific study with less than 200 participants should be discarded and the failure to routinely do so has more to do with scientific laziness and the pro-profit incentive most journals have than anything else.

> Any scientific study with less than 200 participants should be discarded ... Imagine you're investigating a drug for hair loss. You gather a group of 31 bald white men. 15 of them take a placebo and 16 take the experimental drug for 24 weeks. If, after 24 weeks, you find 1 of 15 controls with a full head of hair, and 14 of 16 test subjects with a full head of hair, is 31 too small a sample size?

Yes.

Let me rephrase what you phrased:

Imagine you're investigating a drug for hair loss, like 20000 other researchers hellbent on achieving their goals. You gather a group of 31 bald white men. 15 of them take a placebo and 16 take the experimental drug for 24 weeks, but because your random allocation put more extra bald people in your non-control group you fixed it by balancing the two groups. Your counterpart that didn't have the same problem, uh, didn't make any adjustments. If, after 24 weeks, you find 1 of 15 controls with a full head of hair by some function you define, and 14 of 16 test subjects with a full head of hair again by some function that you define oh and we didn't adjust for anything but of course in the case where the drugs didn't do anything we did because the non-control group were all above average in both age and some other random things like testosterone levels. Is 31 too small a sample size?

31 is always too small of a sample size. These scientific studies are almost always bullshit and we all know it and we'd do something about it if we really cared but we don't because nobody is incentivized to fix it.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#134

Post by arkades »

dwyerm wrote: post #28
Grazester wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to use naproxen but something tells me that would kill me as well

I think that all NSAIDs (like naproxen and ibuprofen) chew holes through your stomach lining, and a whole class of them were yanked from the market for causing heart attacks[1]. (But, yeah, naproxen seems to be one of the safest ones...) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COX-2_inhibitor

All stomach effects are due to decreased prostaglandin levels. All NSAIDs function through inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis.

The exception is Tylenol/acetaminophen, as it doesn’t have an anti-inflammatory effect / doesn’t seem to act primarily on COX1/2. It’s currently popular to bandy about the theory that it targets spinal COX3.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#135

Post by Bud »

ChristianGeek wrote: post #55
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you were wondering: Cannabidiol (INN;[3] abbreviated as: CBD) is one of at least 113 active cannabinoids identified in cannabis.[4][5] It is a major phytocannabinoid, accounting for up to 40% of the plant's extract. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

It’s worth noting that a legal version, extracted from Hemp (a form of Cannabis that has no psychoactive properties), is available via mail order anywhere in the U.S.

Hemp is not "a form of" cannabis. It IS cannabis.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#136

Post by arkades »

pkaye wrote: post #117
wildmusings wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had two doctors suggest taking over 2000mg a day like it was nothing. One of them was a fellow hiker on the Appalachian Trail and suggested it as a daily regimen for regular joint pain (common for long-distance hikers). The other suggested it for aiding recovery from mild frostnip. (In both cases, I ended up only taking it for a few days.) Unless you have stomach problems—NSAIDs are linked to ulcers—high doses o…

My nephrologists all say NSAIDs on long term use have a risk for acute kidney failure. They say Tylenol is safe in long term as long as liver is otherwise healthy and you stay under daily dosage limit.

Tylenol definitely accrues liver damage over time.

And your nephrologist is correct about NSAIDs. One of their direct effects is to reduce afferent blood flow to the kidney. Every time you take one you’re telling your kidney, “that amount of blood you think you need? Have a little less.” Blood flow to the kidney is extremely carefully regulated - this is never a good thing.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#137

Post by pas »

disconnected wrote: post #47
jgust wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See: The NFL

When I think "painful initiation ritual", I think "glove made out of bullet ants" [1] not "organized sporting event in which everyone is wearing armor and hurting someone badly is grounds for stopping the game and rushing him/her to the hospital". Even if you pick something like Boxing or similar contact sports where the goal is to intentionally hurt your opponent, it is still a far-cry from sticking your hand into a…

Isn't that inferal tree in Australia more painful?

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#138

Post by dropden52 »

rhexs wrote: post #85
ChristianGeek wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that a legal version, extracted from Hemp (a form of Cannabis that has no psychoactive properties), is available via mail order anywhere in the U.S.

I looked into the hemp based extract a while back and the conclusion I drew was that it was up for debate whether or not it was legal. Proponents cited a bunch of laws regarding industrial hemp while the DEA seemed to have another position entirely. Was this finally settled or is it still a bit gray?

Since vitamins and supplements are totally unregulated it could be that it doesn't actually contain any of the active ingredient it claims it does, thereby avoiding any legal issue.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#139

Post by Shank »

zengid wrote: post #127

Not a doctor / scientist. Can anyone tell me if this is a pilot study or reproduced results from other studies? Or in other words, should I take this as a fact yet?

This is from PNAS early edition, and has no citations yet (meaning nobody has used this work in subsequent studies). For the general topic, Google Scholar (https://scholar.google.com/) is excellent at finding journal articles on any topic (including testicular function as it relates to ibuprofen). At first glance, this doesn't appear to be reproduction of prior work either.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology

#140

Post by Hello71 »

arkades wrote: post #134
dwyerm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that all NSAIDs (like naproxen and ibuprofen) chew holes through your stomach lining, and a whole class of them were yanked from the market for causing heart attacks[1]. (But, yeah, naproxen seems to be one of the safest ones...) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COX-2_inhibitor

All stomach effects are due to decreased prostaglandin levels. All NSAIDs function through inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis. The exception is Tylenol/acetaminophen, as it doesn’t have an anti-inflammatory effect / doesn’t seem to act primarily on COX1/2. It’s currently popular to bandy about the theory that it targets spinal COX3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsteroidal_anti-inflammatory...: "NSAIDs cause a dual assault on the GI tract: the acidic molecules directly irritate the gastric mucosa, and inhibition of COX-1 and COX-2 reduces the levels of protective prostaglandins" (emphasis added)
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