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Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

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Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#131

Post by goialoq »

MikeTheGreat wrote: post #108
cphillips wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their educat…

I want to start by saying that it's awesome that Brown, Cornell, Yale, and whatever other Ivies are need-blind. That's awesome, and I applaud them for it. That said, economic status and academic performance correlate closely. A college that's very selective will necessarily filter out a lot of lower-income kids purely because it's hard to do extra-curriculars if you need to work after school and/or if you can't affor…

Why should a school select students based on extra-curriculars? Why is "working at a job" not considered an extra-curricular?

Why should a college even choose the highest academic performers? It's an educational institution, not a contest.

At the end of the day, what is a college optimizing for, and why?

Colleges could be selecting for students who the college can provide the most value to, or which students need that college the most, or which students show the most potential for post-college success by the college's metrics.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#132

Post by lawlesst »

rohunati wrote: post #118
zjaffee wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UCLA is actually important to note, as from a NYTimes study, they turn the largest population of students who grew up in the bottom 20% to people who are in the top 20% of income earners.

Do you have a source? this is really interesting, would love to read more.

I believe this is the study that's being referred to. It's not by the NYT but they wrote about research by economist Raj Chetty, of Stanford, and others.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/opinion/sunday/americas-g...

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#133

Post by goialoq »

bmcusick wrote: post #2

Not that loan-free educations are bad, but why is Brown raising $120M from alumni and the like, rather than lowering their tuition by $120M? The student loan crisis is only a crisis because Universities (lead by the Ivy League and similarly elite private colleges) are charging exorbitant prices for tuition, room, and board. This isn't charity or benevolent. This is just bilking a different class of people. Efforts to…

> Lead by the Ivy League and similarly elite private colleges

They aren't similar. The Ivy League has ultra-wealthy donors and parents paying the tuition of students of modest means.

Most students don't pay the sticker price

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#134

Post by imakecomments »

cphillips wrote: post #99
geebee wrote: post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their educat…

>So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students.

You missed the point. Poor kids in general don't go to Math & Science high schools, or high schools that offer college level courses in Calculus I-III, Number Theory, Abstract Algebra, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, 1-2 semesters worth of programming, Data Structures, etc. These kids don't have have access to private tutors to ensure they ace their SATs, SAT Subjects, ACTs etc. They aren't enrolling in multiple ECs and they don't have teachers with PhDs writing them letters of recommendation. These kids don't have parents that went to colleges and don't have the resources handed to them as the kids that are getting into Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford etc. If you look at the lower level high schools in America, they barely give any of their kids any advantage. They actually put them at a major disadvantage compared to the elite high schools.

It's great elite colleges have these needed based programs. But by virtue of their admissions criteria they are excluding lower income students on a vast scale.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#136

Post by tptacek »

cphillips wrote: post #99
geebee wrote: post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their educat…

In addition to some other excellent points made on this subthread it's worth adding that matriculation is structurally need-biased, in that attendance requires forgoing a full-time income for 4 years, while also providing for living expenses.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#137

Post by ryanwaggoner »

goialoq wrote: post #131
MikeTheGreat wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to start by saying that it's awesome that Brown, Cornell, Yale, and whatever other Ivies are need-blind. That's awesome, and I applaud them for it. That said, economic status and academic performance correlate closely. A college that's very selective will necessarily filter out a lot of lower-income kids purely because it's hard to do extra-curriculars if you need to work after school and/or if you can't affor…

Why should a school select students based on extra-curriculars? Why is "working at a job" not considered an extra-curricular? Why should a college even choose the highest academic performers? It's an educational institution, not a contest. At the end of the day, what is a college optimizing for, and why? Colleges could be selecting for students who the college can provide the most value to, or which students need tha…

or which students show the most potential for post-college success by the college's metrics

I think this is what they're doing, and it's really hard to do that for a 17 or 18 year old kid beyond grades, test scores, and extra-curriculars. What would you suggest?

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#138

Post by cwyers »

cphillips wrote: post #99
geebee wrote: post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their educat…

https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/college-legacy/

> A study of thirty elite colleges, found that primary legacy students are an astonishing 45% more likely to get into a highly selective college or university than a non-legacy. Secondary legacies receive a lesser pick-me-up of 13%. One study revealed that being a legacy was equivalent in admissions value to a 160 point gain on the SATs (on a 1600 point scale).

The end result of the legacy advantage can be seen on elite college campuses across the country. At Harvard, one-third of students offered admission have Crimson lineage. Fellow Ivies, The University of Pennsylvania and Brown also admit upwards of 33% of legacies, double their overall admit rate. Princeton, with its minuscule 7% admissions rate, has been known to admit over 40% of legacy candidates.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#139

Post by ApostleMatthew »

goialoq wrote: post #135
creaghpatr wrote: post #5

Related, Brown's current endowment is appx $3B.

Brown is a University, so that endowment funds research as well as tuition support.

And even beyond that, comments that bring up endowments usually come from a misunderstanding of what an endowment is. Its not like Brown has a bank account with $3B in it which they can access whenever and however they'd like. Endowments pay out a certain amount of money each year (I think its around 4% each year for most universities), and usually have strict stipulations on how its spent.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#140

Post by onwardly »

bmcusick wrote: post #120
onwardly wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they still want people that can afford to pay $50k/year to pay it. Lowering tuition lowers it for everyone. If your parents make $300k+/year, then you'll still be paying full tuition. But as their income is lower, currently you'll get some need-based financial aid. The problem is that this aid is a combination of "scholarship" and "loans". The goal here is to remove the loan component. The problem still is th…

>> Because they still want people that can afford to pay $50k/year to pay it. That's not quite what I was getting at. My question is: Why are they making alumni find the $120M in grants, when they could just forgive the loan directly? There's nothing that says a lender has to collect on its debt. It can choose to forgive the debt. So it's possible for Brown to charge $50K/year generally, collect it from the rich kids…

The loans don't actually come from the school- they are often government-sponsored, though those typically cap out at $12k a year or something. The rest you have to get through private loans, and the school has no way to forgive them- unless they want to write a check to my loan provider.
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