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A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

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Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#131

Post by openasocket »

BatFastard wrote: post #93

Here is what I calculate 250m[1] * $1000 * 12 = $3,000,000,000,000 Now take away the people on social security - 56m Now take away the people currently employed - 145m Give us around 50 million people, at a cost of around 600 billion per year. Wow, thats a lot BUT if we now look at cost for existing social welfare programs - 927 billion. Means we would save around 300 billion per year! Of course families would requir…

Except those social welfare programs would still be essential. If you're poor and get sick, or you're disabled, you get a lot more (and need a lot more) than $1000/mo from today's social welfare programs.

Also, your math doesn't make sense. You say we currently spend $927B on social welfare programs and propose BI as a complete replacement for those programs. But that number includes Social Security, and you subtracted the people on social security from your list of people. Social security cost $917B by the way, almost all of our social welfare spending.

You also can't just subtract all the people currently employed. A large portion of people on welfare are employed.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-w...

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#132

Post by bunderbunder »

stretchwithme wrote: post #124
bunderbunder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to learn how many people get into jobs like drug dealing because it's the career option in their community that pays better than minimum wage. Crime also tends to correlate negatively with wealth redistribution, not positively. Correlation != causation, natch, but it's also the case that if your causative claim were true, then one would expect the correlation to be positive rather than negative…

I don't consider selling products to people to be a crime.

It's generally an entry level position in a company that operates in the "organized crime" market sector.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#133

Post by kazinator »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #22
kazinator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'll end up just injecting those trillions back into the economy. Right; that is, whichever economy those rich folks choose to call home. :)

There's been studies that found the rich don't leave a place due to taxes. I.E. California has one of the biggest economies in the world... http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2011/02/documents/...

Well, the rich generally leave a place due to what season it is.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#135

Post by mcbruiser4 »

asherwebb wrote: post #50

For the most part the poor in the USA already can get access to food stamps, medicaid, section 8 and a number of other programs that provide a safety net - especially if there are dependents in the household. For the middle class a reduced income tax rate would be much more effective than a UBI when it comes to saving money and having more for personal spending. The idea of giving a UBI to the rich strikes me as a bi…

of course. but that's exactly what the proponents of BI want, disguised as altruism.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#136

Post by dragonwriter »

013a wrote: post #107
lucozade wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get the logic. If, today, the trailer park owner is not required to provide adequate sanitation (which strikes me as heinous btw), why would UBI change that? Either the state couldn't care less or their are laws that are being flouted. Either way, it's not clear why a change in distribution methodology would change either. The bit of your argument that I completely agree would occur is that the trailer p…

I agree. UBI is such a fascinating idea, but much like communism it feels like an extreme that will never work in practice. Everyone gets an extra $1000/month. Great. That's extra money flowing into an economy which absolutely affects supply/demand for the things everyone needs (food, shelter). Food might be fine because there's a lot of competition, but landlords? Rental prices are almost completely set by market de…

> Everyone gets an extra $1000/month. Great. That's extra money flowing into an economy

No, it's not, in most proposals, since it's funded by a combination of new taxes and displacing other spending programs.

If you fund it by printing money, sure, it's new money, but that's not what is usually proposed with UBI.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#137

Post by dragonwriter »

JonFish85 wrote: post #76

Outside of the "how to pay for it" question (which has never been addressed beyond vague "tax the rich" promises) there's another problem: how to save people from themselves. One could think of this as an annuity, and try to cash it in for total cash value today (e.g. lump sum payment): get $200k today, and sign over the rest of the checks you get for life. Then what do you do with bankrupt folks? Sorry, you had your…

> Then what do you do with bankrupt folks? Sorry, you had your chance, now you starve in the streets?

The institution of bankruptcy already answers, in general outline, the question of what to do with bankrupt folks: in short, cancel debts that aren't payable without excessive hardship. UBI should obviously be payable only to the beneficiary (except in the case of legal incapacity), who might contract to pay an equal amount to someone else, but such a contractual liability would be as subject to cancellation in bankruptcy as any other debt.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#138

Post by asherwebb »

Perhaps the correct question to posit is the following - is making people more dependent on the government ever going to truly empower people and their communities or will it eventually lead to disenfranchisement? Look at what happened with all the government sanctioned urban renewal projects in the 1970's. You had the government claim land by eminent domain in many inner cities with the idea that they would renew that area and folks would be able to move back to their homes. Instead you had large numbers of those folks who had been living with very little government assistance for generations move into housing projects en masse. Those projects are now hotbeds for drugs and crime, the residents never got to move back to their houses and it has created generational dependance on welfare. Don't trust that company scrip in other words - especially when the company is the government

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#139

Post by AaronM »

dragonwriter wrote: post #136
013a wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. UBI is such a fascinating idea, but much like communism it feels like an extreme that will never work in practice. Everyone gets an extra $1000/month. Great. That's extra money flowing into an economy which absolutely affects supply/demand for the things everyone needs (food, shelter). Food might be fine because there's a lot of competition, but landlords? Rental prices are almost completely set by market de…

> Everyone gets an extra $1000/month. Great. That's extra money flowing into an economy No, it's not, in most proposals, since it's funded by a combination of new taxes and displacing other spending programs. If you fund it by printing money, sure, it's new money, but that's not what is usually proposed with UBI.

If those new taxes primarily target the rich and large corporations it would be, since a disproportionate amount of money they earn is not being spent.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#140

Post by tomjen3 »

sova wrote: post #127
tomjen3 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always though that as long as the US has a social program, it should be CC style (although there is also an argument for something like Teach for America, a 6'4 50 year old lumberjack might help prevent unruly classes), because (and here I cannot help but sound insanely old) making something gives you a certain amount of pride that helps you in many ways - you can be an ex drug addict who is trying to get permissio…

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "CC Style?" You make a lot of sense with this post. Even UBI will not replace the human drive or need to create or feel satisfaction, and people will pursue that in healthier ways in their Survival Mode is taken care of (imho).

Civilian conservation corps, the make work program of the depression.
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