America has a monopoly problem • Hacker News Board

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#131

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #130

rayiner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why then the phenomenon which the government has permitted of outsourcing US jobs? The government doesn't "permit" outsourcing of U.S. jobs. Thanks to the technology created by folks here on HN, there is nothing the government can really do if IBM decides to fire a worker in New York and hire one in Bangalore. The only thing the government can really do is offer concessions and incentives to reduce the bleeding. >…

> If money really bought elections, companies would spend a lot more of it trying to do so. Even the threat of money buys politicians. Case in point: the repeal of Obamacare is wildly unpopular with the US public, but the Koch brothers got a majority of the house of representatives to vote for it. How? Simple: they threatened that any GOP representative who voted against it, would face a primary opponent in their dis…

Obviously, Republicans in Congress only care about what Republican voters want. And a significant majority of registered republicans want Obamacare to be repealed. So that’s a bad example of money driving politics.

Also, you’ve got it backwards about Citizens United. The Supreme Court didn’t rule that money is speech. Instead, detractors are trying to convince people that speech (the case was about a political movie) is actually money.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#132

Post by refurb » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #106

refurb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then it's just a race to the bottom, no? The "race to the bottom" is the reason why free markets are so prosperous. Each business independently works to reduce costs and competition forces companies to share those savings with consumers. The best example of the "race to the bottom" stopping are monopolies (often gov't supported) like Comcast where they can sit fat and happy raking in a ton of profits and telling cons…

But in this case, we're not talking about business. We're talking about the funding to pave our roads, run our schools, be able to fight fires, and all that other good stuff we need.

The gov't is well within their right to change the tax code as they see fit. And they do all the time. It's not like we're seeing tax receipts declining. They've done nothing but increase over the last 100 years.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#133

Post by ianai » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

thecombjelly wrote: post #121

America has a capitalism problem. What the article fails to address is that the root cause is really capitalism. Under capitalism wealth and power always concentrates, which in the case of businesses, that eventually means bad monopolies. Under a representative democracy that also means politics will always be corrupted because those with money and power will always be benefited by controlling politics, and they have…

I can think of at least one way to diminish companies power over legislatures. Pay representatives enough that they’re indifferent to corrupt forces. It’s not like there an expectation for representives to be broke.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#134

Post by oconnore » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #110

abandonliberty wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you have is natural selection. Systemic corruption is itself a deterministic outcome/symptom when corruption is an adaptive trait. Unfortunately many undesirable behaviors are adaptive: the risk-adjusted rate of return is positive. 'Bad actors' have much more to gain from engaging in them than watchdogs have in stopping it. You will always lose the fight against corruption in the long run because as the war goes…

From the Iron Law of Oligarchy page: "no sufficiently large and complex organization can function purely as a direct democracy" I'm not sure this is proven yet. Certainly in the past, I'd have agreed, but with communication via the Internet making realtime decision-making between all members of a democracy possible, I think direct democracy is theoretically possible at least. If not absolutely direct, then at least h…

> in the past, I'd have agreed, but with communication via the Internet making realtime decision-making between all members of a democracy possible, I think direct democracy is theoretically possible at least.

Our current issues have nothing to do with latency, they have to do with manipulation and propaganda. The internet has so far made that worse, not better. If every single Facebook trend, or 30 second clip from Fox and Friends had the potential to derail an international treaty, or modify healthcare on the fly, reality would be strictly more terrifying than it is now.

Show me web technology improving stability and deep thoughtfulness, and then we'll have something to talk about.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#135

Post by wav-part » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #116

wav-part wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all your examples, state acts as gate-keeper and these are local/national industries. If you have a multi-national company that is monopoly, its very likely to be market granted monopoly. > In a mixed economy, monopoly exists because of state and market. No. We live in global economy. Most companies have to compete globally. You might get favours from few countries but not most. Note whether your home country give…

I'm confused. The article was about the United States, which has an enormous regulatory apparatus. You're saying that's irrelevant to multi-national corporations that operate here?

No. If some MNC is a global monopoly then the industry is lightly/none regulated by most significant countries.

Though, USA is an exception, achived arguably due to history of low market intervention. I would not say that the MNC does not care but achieving global monopoly in heavely regulated industry is very hard. Case in point, in banking industry (the most regulated sector), there is no private (or even public) global monopoly.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#136

Post by Animats » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #126

whistlerbrk wrote: post #14

America has a corruption problem. The ability for companies to vertically integrate and essentially make smaller businesses non-competitive can only occur when you don't have to pay the taxes your smaller competitors have to pay and don't have to obey the same laws your competitors have to obey. We have a systemic corruption problem (manifested in lobbying) coupled with greed on scales we've never seen before. Everyt…

I agree with what you said, except for the "greed on scales we've never seen before". I think it's pretty clear, if you look back at the last 5,000 years of history that we've clearly seen greed on the same scale (or greater) than what we are seeing right now. It seems to be endemic to the human condition.

The last time income concentration in the US looked like this was around 1900. That generated the union movement and interest in socialism and communism.

(This time we got Trump. Oops.)

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#137

Post by menerva » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:26 PM UTC

Capitalism on a smaller scale is broken. Once you have achieved a monopoly they become entrenched in the socio-political system.

On a global scale, where laws can't protect I.P. we will see innovation coming out from new sources. If America is happy to stagnate, we will see India and China leading the future.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#138

Post by zerebubuth » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

thecombjelly wrote: post #121

America has a capitalism problem. What the article fails to address is that the root cause is really capitalism. Under capitalism wealth and power always concentrates, which in the case of businesses, that eventually means bad monopolies. Under a representative democracy that also means politics will always be corrupted because those with money and power will always be benefited by controlling politics, and they have…

> Under capitalism wealth and power always concentrates

Not always. The share of wealth owned by the top 10% in the USA fell between 1932 and 1952, and again between 1962 and 1985 [1].

[1] http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf#page56

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#139

Post by trophycase » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

deusum wrote: post #69

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digital landscape seems to be growing increasingly feudalistic. Users have increasingly less control over the products and services they use. -Instead of buying a movie or a song, you stream it -You don't own your data in the cloud -You don't own the music you buy from Apple -You can't even take the battery out of many newer model phones

feudalism n. A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.

Parent clearly means feudalism in the abstract sense.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#140

Post by thecombjelly » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

zerebubuth wrote: post #138

thecombjelly wrote: post #121

America has a capitalism problem. What the article fails to address is that the root cause is really capitalism. Under capitalism wealth and power always concentrates, which in the case of businesses, that eventually means bad monopolies. Under a representative democracy that also means politics will always be corrupted because those with money and power will always be benefited by controlling politics, and they have…

> Under capitalism wealth and power always concentrates Not always. The share of wealth owned by the top 10% in the USA fell between 1932 and 1952, and again between 1962 and 1985 [1]. [1] http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf#page56

Yes, it fluctuates depending on numerous factors, including how unhappy those without capital get about the unequal distribution of capital. You see this when monopolies start getting broken up and some wealth gets passed back down. But inevitably the capital gets concentrated again because that's how capitalism works. And even when some of the wealth gets passed back down the people in power generally stay in power.