America has a monopoly problem • Hacker News Board

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#111

Post by 09094920394314 » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

abandonliberty wrote: post #96

whistlerbrk wrote: post #14

America has a corruption problem. The ability for companies to vertically integrate and essentially make smaller businesses non-competitive can only occur when you don't have to pay the taxes your smaller competitors have to pay and don't have to obey the same laws your competitors have to obey. We have a systemic corruption problem (manifested in lobbying) coupled with greed on scales we've never seen before. Everyt…

What you have is natural selection. Systemic corruption is itself a deterministic outcome/symptom when corruption is an adaptive trait. Unfortunately many undesirable behaviors are adaptive: the risk-adjusted rate of return is positive. 'Bad actors' have much more to gain from engaging in them than watchdogs have in stopping it. You will always lose the fight against corruption in the long run because as the war goes…

What you, CGP Grey and other people tend to not say is that this is not a deterministic outcome of democracy at all. Even the second link you posted has some exceptions in the article . The book that the video is based on (the Dictators handbook, great read) contains some ways out of it dilemma. It shows how and why democracy is more efficient at creating wealth for a bigger number of people, and so there is a strong market pressure towards a free society. These forces can be smothered (e.g. by making pessimistic youtube videos because those get viral views) or tapped into and strengthened (by offering counter points, becoming active in your local political sphere etc.) Culture shapes us and is shaped by us. This is not a game where fate is a player (oh, and as a side note for those that need it, it is also in your personal monetary interest to become involved in politics, even if you do not get corrupt. Knowledge and connections are power, even without corrupt behaviour)

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#112

Post by s73ver_ » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #83

nnash wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can count the number of companies that own all American media on one hand. How is it that anti-trust is "taking care of it" again?

Maybe he thinks more than one company is sufficient then? But that’s still just a civil difference of opinion! It’s not insulting to be disagreed with I’m afraid.

It is when the "disagreement" is not only flat out wrong, but condescendingly so.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#113

Post by wav-part » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #76

wav-part wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is confusing State granted monopoly with Market granted monopoly. Economists usually talks about the former.

> This thread is confusing State granted monopoly with Market granted monopoly. Economists usually talks about the former. Can you really tease those apart in our mixed economy? Look at ISP monopolies, or the bizarre state of the "deregulated" electricity market and what remains of the long-distance telephone market. Or take pharma, where tremendous resources are needed to comply with regulation. Or the -- tremendous…

In all your examples, state acts as gate-keeper and these are local/national industries. If you have a multi-national company that is monopoly, its very likely to be market granted monopoly.

> In a mixed economy, monopoly exists because of state and market.

No. We live in global economy. Most companies have to compete globally. You might get favours from few countries but not most. Note whether your home country gives you a boost or not, is irrelevent. The success in a foreign country without its govt's blessing, is the question.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#114

Post by jasode » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #101

jasode wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A healthy economy is more like a jungle, innumerable smaller competitors ... that leads to fascinating innovation. I think you missed PT's point. The word "monopoly" has overshadowed his message. He wants people to pursue "blue ocean"[1] ideas to be innovative . Instead of starting a company that makes another generic clone of aspirin, you pursue a drug that cures breast cancer . Or instead of building a business th…

Does the typical investor really care if the idea is a cure for breast cancer or "driving all existing providers in some space out of business and then mopping up the market"?

Yes, investors care about the goals of the business. See the promises of Theranos' "40 tests and detect cancer from a single drop of blood". I can't think of a VC that has the investment thesis of "put money into businesses that has cutthroat competition and drive others out of business".

Theranos had promises of "blue ocean". No competition. This attracted investors like moths to a flame. (We now know they had no competitors because their technology was a fraud.) The investors would have been better off investing in a boring factory making generic aspirin ("red oceans of bloody competition").

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#115

Post by wu-ikkyu » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

deusum wrote: post #69

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digital landscape seems to be growing increasingly feudalistic. Users have increasingly less control over the products and services they use. -Instead of buying a movie or a song, you stream it -You don't own your data in the cloud -You don't own the music you buy from Apple -You can't even take the battery out of many newer model phones

feudalism n. A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.

Seems like an apt description of tech giants like Facebook, Google, and Apple.

Consider the inordinate attention (~homage) and data forfeiture which billions of people submit to those walled gardens (fiefs).

It seems symbolic that so many spend so much of their day with their heads bowed down towards their phone.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#116

Post by sevensor » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

wav-part wrote: post #113

sevensor wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This thread is confusing State granted monopoly with Market granted monopoly. Economists usually talks about the former. Can you really tease those apart in our mixed economy? Look at ISP monopolies, or the bizarre state of the "deregulated" electricity market and what remains of the long-distance telephone market. Or take pharma, where tremendous resources are needed to comply with regulation. Or the -- tremendous…

In all your examples, state acts as gate-keeper and these are local/national industries. If you have a multi-national company that is monopoly, its very likely to be market granted monopoly. > In a mixed economy, monopoly exists because of state and market. No. We live in global economy. Most companies have to compete globally. You might get favours from few countries but not most. Note whether your home country give…

I'm confused. The article was about the United States, which has an enormous regulatory apparatus. You're saying that's irrelevant to multi-national corporations that operate here?

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#117

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

From the article

Firms like Microsoft led in the innovation in creating new barriers to entry. How could one compete with a browser provided at a zero price.

I think what happened to Microsoft is the perfect example of how to overcome a monopoly.

20 years ago, everyone thought that Microsoft’s monopoly was unassailable. Google barely existed, Facebook didn’t exist, Amazon was a bookseller and Apple was basically bankrupt.

20 years ago, Netflix had a few million DVD customers and AOL was the largest ISP.

Who knows what will happen in the next 20 years?

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#118

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #114

emodendroket wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the typical investor really care if the idea is a cure for breast cancer or "driving all existing providers in some space out of business and then mopping up the market"?

Yes, investors care about the goals of the business. See the promises of Theranos' "40 tests and detect cancer from a single drop of blood" . I can't think of a VC that has the investment thesis of "put money into businesses that has cutthroat competition and drive others out of business" . Theranos had promises of "blue ocean". No competition. This attracted investors like moths to a flame. (We now know they had no…

I'd argue that's basically what Uber is trying to do.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#119

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #117

From the article Firms like Microsoft led in the innovation in creating new barriers to entry. How could one compete with a browser provided at a zero price. I think what happened to Microsoft is the perfect example of how to overcome a monopoly. 20 years ago, everyone thought that Microsoft’s monopoly was unassailable. Google barely existed, Facebook didn’t exist, Amazon was a bookseller and Apple was basically bank…

this whole topic is because of political considerations and if you just look around you will see nearly all members coming from the same party parroting the same lines. throw in lots of google money which was the basis for a story recently bemoaning Amazon's influence and you can see its all for naught.

there is lot of movement by said members in Congress to invoke antitrust by drowning people in buzzwords and FUD. If anything the larger American based companies brought up as issues themselves face even greater competition from overseas. What we have to fear besides even more regulation on our own industries is having it turn into a trade war when overseas entities not burdened by the same restrictions start to compete.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#120

Post by jasode » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #118

jasode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, investors care about the goals of the business. See the promises of Theranos' "40 tests and detect cancer from a single drop of blood" . I can't think of a VC that has the investment thesis of "put money into businesses that has cutthroat competition and drive others out of business" . Theranos had promises of "blue ocean". No competition. This attracted investors like moths to a flame. (We now know they had no…

I'd argue that's basically what Uber is trying to do.

Fyi... Peter Thiel thinks Uber is overvalued. He didn't like the way they compete.

Uber should be a case study that burning up billions in investor money (billions wasted on trying to underprice Didi in China) was a colossal mistake. How much of that bad strategy is blamed on Travis's vs investors is something we won't know until a tell-all book comes out.