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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#131

Post by Confusion »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #101
Confusion wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However: Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? She could, but that's not what she is…

...female students in CS are being discriminated against. [...]but research in discrimination against women is crystal clear on this. [Citation needed.]

Well, there's the investigation linked in the article [1]. This [2] is a review of various types of unconscious prejudices that people entertain and you could well imagine what the consequences are for women. However, if you want experimental evidence, then Googling 'experiment gender discrimination' (leaving out 'for' or 'against' on purpose), yields plenty [3] of [4] studies [5] that support the common assertion that women are continuously being discriminated against. Admission to, and opportunities within, CS is simply no exception.

I can't do any better than Googling it; that's what I did years ago when I was looking to verify that women really were being discriminated against, because I figured we would surely be past such barbaric behavior. Since then, I wised up on the fact that we're just not really that much in control of our behavior. I'm not a psychologist, but I do know how to find and apprehend research in such a domain. Meta-analysis studies are quite convenient :).

[1] http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html

[2] http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~mrbworks/articles/1995_PsyRev.pd...

[3] http://econ2.econ.iastate.edu/classes/econ321/Orazem/darity_...

[4] http://economics.uchicago.edu/download/JLISTdisc.pdf

[5] http://www.tamu.edu/classes/psyc/payne/ID/ID%2520articles/He...

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#132

Post by naner »

It is much more subtle, but just as ugly. These days, bright, thoughtful, enlightened people assume that the absence of women in certain fields results from women being unable to compete on merit. The assumption that, if someone creates a scholarship for women, it is because otherwise, women can’t hack it.

I tend to think it is that women often don't have the type of personality that allows them to enjoy a highly technical field. I can't be the only one whose noticed that a lot of computer scientists have some mildly autistic qualities. I do okay in most social situations but I have gone weeks without talking to anyone (besides the cashier at the grocery store, etc.) and I have been the awkward guy in a number of situations. And I am much better socialized than a lot of my colleges at work and in college. The field appears to attract this type of personality, I don't know why. And women appear to have these problems less frequently and less seriously than men do. And this also jives with her "code cowboy" stereotype.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#133

Post by marquis »

parfe wrote: post #127
missizii wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that because men are, on average, physically stronger than women, it implies that they are smarter or more analytical than women? That's like arguing that because women have, on average, smaller feet than men, they are smarter or more analytical than men.

I didn't say smarter. You made that up. If you're willing to accept that men and women have different physical characteristics and different aversion to risk, why then must the brain have an exemption when it comes to ability? Why can't men be more comfortable programming a computer? And the more important question, why should there be an effort to lure women into computing?

>And the more important question, why should there be an effort to lure women into computing?

well, that's a fair question but what about the opposite? "why should there not be an effort to lure anyone into computing?"

there are a lot of people who have a genuine interest in computing, but don't enter it because of either lack of role models or social pressure. so, they are really missing out on something that may make them happy as adults, and for reasons beyond their control. not beyond their ability.

another factor i've noticed a lot in my career, working as a programmer but interacting with a lot of creatives, is that a lot of people, perhaps young women, are not interested in spending a huge amount of time alone, which may be the only pre-requisite to learning computing - being interested in finding out how stuff works more than going out with your friends and/or succumbing to peer pressure to be sociable. computing isn't something you can do with a group of people. you can sit in the same room but ultimately you need to focus for long periods of time without distraction. i just haven't met a lot of people in my life who can/want to do that, and aren't already in a field that needs that focus.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#134

Post by marquis »

awongh wrote: post #68
Keile wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you put a lot of effort into this reply.

I did, because in I feel like gender stereotyping in general is overstated. Are there differences between men and women? Of course there are, but blanket statements, like the one you made below I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures ...I feel like it's statements like this that don't help things. Women are more artis…

i'm glad to read your comments, as i feel the same way. i get remarks based on my gender from both men and women. the fact of the matter is, i am female but i am also the type of person who likes to spend a lot of time alone thinking and controlling my immediate environment. thus computing appeals to me. i also was introduced to computing at the right age, before adolescence when being sociable wasn't so much of an urge so even though i didn't code much through my teenage years i was able to pick it up later very easily and with confidence. i think it's really this simple: a blend of personality type, circumstance and privilege.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#135

Post by yummyfajitas »

Confusion wrote: post #131
yummyfajitas wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...female students in CS are being discriminated against. [...]but research in discrimination against women is crystal clear on this. [Citation needed.]

Well, there's the investigation linked in the article [1]. This [2] is a review of various types of unconscious prejudices that people entertain and you could well imagine what the consequences are for women. However, if you want experimental evidence, then Googling 'experiment gender discrimination' (leaving out 'for' or 'against' on purpose), yields plenty [3] of [4] studies [5] that support the common assertion th…

Near as I can tell, [1] provides virtually no data beyond opinion polls, certainly none showing discrimination. [1] is also an advocacy piece written by people with a vested interest in finding discrimination, since it will get them more funding/chairs/office space/etc.

[2] seems to be a review of psychology, but whatever data they have on discrimination seems to be buried deep within the article (I only skimmed it). I skimmed [3], but it seems to have virtually no data on women in computing at all, and what it has seems concerned primarily with the 90's or earlier.

Then I gave up. I think you should read your sources before posting them.

I don't see a single source which, e.g., shows women outperforming men at the same level, which would be fairly concrete proof of discrimination.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#136

Post by tynman »

The school I teach at has recently found that women are actually more valued than their male counterparts by employers at the time of graduation. They've been averaging 4% higher job placement and about $2k higher starting salary; 95% and 62k, respectively, for women.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11721767&hl=2

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#137

Post by Confusion »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #135
Confusion wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's the investigation linked in the article [1]. This [2] is a review of various types of unconscious prejudices that people entertain and you could well imagine what the consequences are for women. However, if you want experimental evidence, then Googling 'experiment gender discrimination' (leaving out 'for' or 'against' on purpose), yields plenty [3] of [4] studies [5] that support the common assertion th…

Near as I can tell, [1] provides virtually no data beyond opinion polls, certainly none showing discrimination. [1] is also an advocacy piece written by people with a vested interest in finding discrimination, since it will get them more funding/chairs/office space/etc. [2] seems to be a review of psychology, but whatever data they have on discrimination seems to be buried deep within the article (I only skimmed it).…

  but it seems to have virtually no data on women in computing at all,
Are you asserting that we need to experimentally verify discrimination in every single new context one can think of? Usually, we generalize from other research: there is no reason to suppose CS is miraculously free of discrimination against women, considering the variety of areas in which this kind of discrimination has been shown exist.

  I don't see a single source which, e.g., shows women outperforming men 
  at the same level, [..]
Why do you have to outperform others before you can be discriminated against? The fact that they are being discriminated against is in itself a reason why they are unlikely to outperform the others.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#138

Post by yummyfajitas »

Confusion wrote: post #137
yummyfajitas wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Near as I can tell, [1] provides virtually no data beyond opinion polls, certainly none showing discrimination. [1] is also an advocacy piece written by people with a vested interest in finding discrimination, since it will get them more funding/chairs/office space/etc. [2] seems to be a review of psychology, but whatever data they have on discrimination seems to be buried deep within the article (I only skimmed it).…

but it seems to have virtually no data on women in computing at all, Are you asserting that we need to experimentally verify discrimination in every single new context one can think of? Usually, we generalize from other research: there is no reason to suppose CS is miraculously free of discrimination against women, considering the variety of areas in which this kind of discrimination has been shown exist. I don't see…

Usually, we generalize from other research: there is no reason to suppose CS is miraculously free of discrimination against women, considering the variety of areas in which this kind of discrimination has been shown exist.

There is also no reason to assume that all or most of the gender gap is caused by discrimination. If we generalize, we discover that lots of other fields (e.g., medicine, law) have sexism, but they also have 50% women.

Remember, we are asking what makes CS special.

Why do you have to outperform others before you can be discriminated against?

Suppose you are biased against green cars. You want to buy fast cars, and you generally only buy a car if it drives at least 80mph. However, since you hate green cars, green cars must drive at least at 100mph before you will consider buying one. Therefore, you will have plenty of slow (80-90mph) red cars, but your green cars will all drive at least as fast as 100mph.

Substitute "women" for "green", "men" for "red", and "productivity" for "speed", and you'll see the same conclusion applies to workers.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#139

Post by derefr »

tkahn6 wrote: post #115
derefr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, only relatively. I think the test is "given immortality, would you get bored?" After exhausting all the stuff I like, I'd learn to like more stuff.

I think becoming interested in more stuff would be a necessity for anyone with immortality. Otherwise you'd be miserable.

Right; but the people who are interested in One Thing or Nothing just say "I don't think I'd want to be immortal; it would get too boring."

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#140

Post by jarek »

seunosewa wrote: post #90
mattdw wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement." Clay Shirky has written about this at length [1]; the basic point being that women are socialized their whole lives to not be entitled or aggressive but to stay quiet and in the background, while men are constantly socialized to take what they want, step forward, go for it, "be a man" etc. Obviously there is much variation, and yes,…

The passivity thing really puzzles me. Why would I want something and not go for it?

Oh boy...

Depending on how much you want something, and your personality, the following and more may readily discourage you:

* Fear of rejection

* Fear of seeming out of place

* Fear of general embarassment

* Fear of disappointment or being underwhelmed upon conquering fear of embarassment and/or ignoring embarassment produced

* Fear that "it won't be worth it"

/a male

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