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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

stubbornella.org

121–130 of 155 posts

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#121
I'm not a fan of the male-stereotyping in the article. At best, it's unproductive, at worst, it insults men and so they stop listening.

A lot of the responses here on HN though demonstrate exactly why many women leave software engineering. Read these responses and ask if you like your mother, wife, girlfriend, or daughter working with people who have these attitudes. In an all-male group, the level of misogyny is camouflaged because there are no women to talk about. When there's a woman around, it's exposed, because she is both a target of any misogyny PLUS all the discussion about the drama created by it. Most women cope by becoming "one of the guys" and laughing along when someone makes a sexist remark. The stereotype of the un-made-up geeky female hacker exists because a lot of women notice the difference in how they're treated when they wear a skirt, heels, nice hair, and make-up, as opposed to jeans, sneakers, ponytail. It's a lot easier to dress sloppy and not be made a target.

Another problem is that a significant amount of workplace happiness derives from having friends at work. It's a lot harder to make friends when you're the only woman and you occasionally wonder, "does he really view me as a friend? or is he flirting? that sounded like flirting." Or consider networking - the best way to advance your career. How do geek guys network? It's not usually golf. Networking with geeky guys usually involves late nights gaming, coding, drinking beer (in my experience). I'm not comfortable going to my single coworkers house to play video games and drink beer until midnight, or staying at work coding with a couple coworkers after everyone else has gone home and the secret mini-fridge in the server room has been opened. It could lead to a bad situation with lots of misunderstanding that could ruin a career. Best to just avoid it.

If it wasn't a wide-spread problem, then why does every single woman in the industry feel like it's something she has had to deal with personally? I've been in the industry 5 years and I'm considering leaving because I feel my gender is holding me back. I'm smart and hard working and I can do really well in a field where being a woman isn't going to hurt my career.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#122
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the other professions are high-risk and require significant physical strength. Men are generally more comfortable with high-risk, high-reward jobs, and have a physical strength advantage over women. Computer Science is not high-risk and does not require significant physical strength.

So why choose computer science as an area to push for more women to participate in? It seems like the opposite of equality. "Here are a bunch of dangerous, yet lucrative career tracks, but I think more women should be programmers because it's safer than climbing a ladder."

Women are more risk averse than men. It's a well-known evolutionary strategy for men to choose high-risk/high-reward pursuits.

Also, you completely ignored my point about these careers being suited to physically extremely strong people, which are disproportionately men (due to biological differences).

Women should be programmers because they are as mentally capable as men, and they can handle the minimal physical requirements. If a woman is just as strong as a male lumberjack/fisherman/etc, and perfectly fine with the risk, then she should be able to do that job as well.

(More than 500,000 people are treated in the US for ladder-related injuries.)

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#123
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career. If it's plausible enough that millions of young women can have their career and life choices distorted away from STEM by a little sexism (a distortion in the dozens or scores of percents), then why isn't it even more plausible that millions of young…

Or why not say "men are naturally more attracted than women to programming", and human beings have a decent track record of becoming skilled at what they're interested in. There's a big difference between not being interested in doing something and not being as capable at doing something.

I don't put it that way because it makes the causality sound wrong. If you think about men being attracted, then it all sounds neutral and due only to one factor, when it's that men being skewed to STEM makes the fields untenable to women who are, if anything, skewed away from STEM (consider the well-established superiority of women at verbal tasks and interpersonal skills).

The question is not why are the other occupations that Greenspun characterizes as attracting women - doctor, psychologist, lawyer, etc. - so well paid, but why STEM occupations are so poorly paid.

If we thought about it from the perspective of a Martian who has just landed, we might say, 'programming, especially in its niches like embedded or highly distributed scalable, is an intensely demanding task which can be profoundly alien to the human mind, and often requires years of training and experience starting as a child-user just to begin to grok things; therefore, I would expect it to be highly professionalized and to have salaries for its accomplished specialists quite commensurate with specialists in other fields like medicine.'

The Martian, of course, would be quite wrong.

In case you didn't bother to read my Greenspun links, he says that a motivated and very intelligent person - the sort of women whose absence is noted in STEM - could expect in their 40s to collect salaries in specialist medicine in the neighborhood of $300,000, or $500,000 as a law firm partner, or $90,000 as a tenured teacher; he didn't cover child psychologists, though I could swear he did somewhere, but those have similar or higher salaries. Assuming you're even able to get tenure in STEM, your salary will be nowhere near any of that...

A software engineer elite enough to make it into Google will earn - while he's employed there - somewhere around $100,000. (http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm) So yeah.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#124
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why choose computer science as an area to push for more women to participate in? It seems like the opposite of equality. "Here are a bunch of dangerous, yet lucrative career tracks, but I think more women should be programmers because it's safer than climbing a ladder."

Women are more risk averse than men. It's a well-known evolutionary strategy for men to choose high-risk/high-reward pursuits. Also, you completely ignored my point about these careers being suited to physically extremely strong people, which are disproportionately men (due to biological differences). Women should be programmers because they are as mentally capable as men, and they can handle the minimal physical req…

It's absurd to be fulling willing to believe, on average, that physically a woman is weaker than a man, but for some reason her brain ( a physical structure! ) is identical in all areas of ability.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#125
I'm arriving to the discussion too late to make a fairly minor point.. but I do think that this blog post misses the boat completely on her dismissal of the fastest growing occupations for women.

"We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors. We like to believe we have evolved, but the data speaks to something else."

Utterly untrue. Women are not doctors? How on earth can she make a statement like this?

According to this site:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf

"Since 1982-83, the total number of women entering U.S. medical schools has increased every year (in fact, the annual increases reach back to 1969-1970). Women’s share of the matriculating class has likewise increased. Women went from less than a third (31.4%) of all matriculants in 1982-83 to a high of 49.6 percent in 2003-04. In 2007-08, women were 48.3 percent of all matriculants."

This data is a little old, I wouldn't be surprised if women surpass 50% soon.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#126
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are more risk averse than men. It's a well-known evolutionary strategy for men to choose high-risk/high-reward pursuits. Also, you completely ignored my point about these careers being suited to physically extremely strong people, which are disproportionately men (due to biological differences). Women should be programmers because they are as mentally capable as men, and they can handle the minimal physical req…

It's absurd to be fulling willing to believe, on average, that physically a woman is weaker than a man, but for some reason her brain ( a physical structure! ) is identical in all areas of ability.

Are you arguing that because men are, on average, physically stronger than women, it implies that they are smarter or more analytical than women?

That's like arguing that because women have, on average, smaller feet than men, they are smarter or more analytical than men.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#127
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absurd to be fulling willing to believe, on average, that physically a woman is weaker than a man, but for some reason her brain ( a physical structure! ) is identical in all areas of ability.

Are you arguing that because men are, on average, physically stronger than women, it implies that they are smarter or more analytical than women? That's like arguing that because women have, on average, smaller feet than men, they are smarter or more analytical than men.

I didn't say smarter. You made that up.

If you're willing to accept that men and women have different physical characteristics and different aversion to risk, why then must the brain have an exemption when it comes to ability? Why can't men be more comfortable programming a computer?

And the more important question, why should there be an effort to lure women into computing?

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#128
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. Moreover, if one's goal is to benefit the field of computer science rather than just help individuals choos…

> If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. If some _individuals_ have a potential to succeed at computer science and are currently not doing so, the…

If those assumptions about the underrepresentation of women in the field hold, then it's much easier to identify women for whom computer science would be a good fit but haven't chosen it than it is to identify similar men. Paying the costs for any qualified college student to attend JSConf would be less effective than paying the costs for qualified women.

Can you suggest gender-blind criteria that would be successful? Discriminating less while achieving the same goal is an unalloyed good.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#129
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a better analogy would be African-Americans getting extra scholarships, to compensate for the relative lack of wealth their families accumulated. I certainly wouldn't begrudge this. Whatever cognitive differences there are between the sexes, I think they're very minor. Do they keep people like Shakespeare from being considered great writers, though women are said to have stronger verbal ability? Anyone read…

"Actually, a better analogy would be African-Americans getting extra scholarships, to compensate for the relative lack of wealth their families accumulated. I certainly wouldn't begrudge this." While I most certainly agree I've always wondered why they don't give the scholarships based on economic rather than racial conditions. Quite frankly, with the way that the US is right now, this would end up mostly benefiting…

Martin Luther King actually had very similar ideas. The fact is, racism was used as a wedge issue for decades to divide poor whites from the black community to the detriment of both.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One anecdote that I heard from people involved with the CMU admissions criteria for CS. In addition to GPA, leadership skills, etc. they used to also look for something interesting technical that you'd done prior to college. They have now removed that criteria from the selection process because they found that it did not correlate with success upon coming to CMU, but it did correlate with gender.

Could you provide a citation for that? I'd be VERY surprised if doing technical work before college did not correlate with success. In my admittedly anecdotal experience (at a college way below the level of CMU), introductory programming classes had a classical bimodal distribution. There was a cluster of grades at 30 (people who weren't interested in programming) and another cluster at 80 (people who coded as a hobb…

That's certainly true for the first programming class, but I don't think it has any effect on the first theory class.
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