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2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

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Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#131

Post by home_boi »

dragonwriter wrote: post #116
home_boi wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are enough similarities to give them significant advantages compared to immigrants coming from other parts of the language tree. English and Spanish have thousands of cognates. Having almost exactly the same alphabet is also a huge advantage. Having already learned thousands of permutations of the same alphabet letters (words) will make memorizing and learning the next thousand permutations much easier.

> There are enough similarities to give them significant advantages compared to immigrants coming from other parts of the language tree. Depends which other parts. Disadvantaged compared to German or Dutch speakers, and even French speakers, but, sure, advantages compared to other, say, people whose only prior language is Mandarin. And, of course, a big disadvantage compared to immigrants who already speak English, e…

> but, sure, advantages compared to other, say, people whose only prior language is Mandarin

I wouldn't understate the significant advantages.

> And, of course, a big disadvantage compared to immigrants who already speak English, even if it's not American English.

Not necessarily. A large percentage of children of immigrants speak with their family (nuclear and extended) mostly in their native language even if their parents can speak decent English. The English skills don't transfer much unless the parents are very active in their child's English education.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#132

Post by trollopTheJope »

swivelmaster wrote: post #7

"California isn’t alone in its stagnating scores and in fact compares favorably with the 12 other states, plus the U.S. Virgin Islands, that administered the same tests last spring from the Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium. Scores decreased in every state, and California’s decline was about the smallest, retired educational testing specialist Douglas McRae said." This is the most important sentence in the artic…

I think the implication is that Californian students (along with students in at least 12 other states) got stupider "unmagically".

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#133

Post by elgenie »

maskedSlacker wrote: post #99
mcny wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. One of the bigger problems with tests is that they tend to become a terrible metric once people start preparing for them specifically (and test-prep can suck the oxegyn out of real education). If the students and teachers don't care about the test, it is much easier (but still difficult) to make a test that gives useful feedback to the school system. Of course, you want s…

>I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply. Teaching adults who pay for the privilege of being in your class is VERY VERY different from teaching children who are forced to be in your class. The latter requires a very special skill se…

That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#134

Post by cm2187 »

gizmo686 wrote: post #115
watwut wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why incentives mess test up? I would try harder on graded test, including preparation.

When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. The more you prepare specifically for a test, the harder it is to determine how much of your score is based on your general understanding of what is being tested, and how much is based on you exploiting the test.

And the more you discriminate between good students who prepared the test and the bad students who didn't bother, exaggerating the contrast.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#135

Post by dogruck »

gizmo686 wrote: post #98
dogruck wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SAT is explicitly designed to predict success at college. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

We are not talking about the SAT. This article is talking about the CAASPP, which is intended to provide feedback and ratings for the schools, not the students.

Most things in life are not measured and evaluated with a standardized test. Instead, they are measured by aggregated choice or surveys/votes. I haven't used a scantron form in many years.

We could dispense with these tests and let people vote with their feet and wallets.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#136

Post by dragonwriter »

dogruck wrote: post #135
gizmo686 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not talking about the SAT. This article is talking about the CAASPP, which is intended to provide feedback and ratings for the schools, not the students.

Most things in life are not measured and evaluated with a standardized test. Instead, they are measured by aggregated choice or surveys/votes. I haven't used a scantron form in many years. We could dispense with these tests and let people vote with their feet and wallets.

> We could dispense with these tests and let people vote with their feet and wallets.

If the policy goal was short-term satisfaction rather than achieving some educational result, and we wanted to weight results by people's ability to bear the extra cost of changing schools from the one most physically convenient to their current residence, sure, that would be sensible. But as problematic as then-current testing regime may be, it's at least in principle aimed at something resembling the public policy goal public education is held out to serve, whereas your option would not be.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#137

Post by topmonk »

peterwwillis wrote: post #58

One of the reasons - probably one of the biggest reasons - for continuously lower test scores in America is the quality of the care these children receive. Over 40% of children in the US are born to unwed mothers, compared to 5% at the beginning of last century. About 70% of unwed childbirth is by black mothers, versus just 24% in 1965. The last two peaks of teenage pregnancy were 1991 and 2007 - so the children of t…

> There is almost no reasonable assistance given to the families of these children - assistance like food, shelter, access to education, daycare, transportation.

Yes, there is. You are arguing for more welfare, but welfare caused the problem in the first place:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=16...

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#138

Post by lostboys67 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #36
swivelmaster wrote: post #7

"California isn’t alone in its stagnating scores and in fact compares favorably with the 12 other states, plus the U.S. Virgin Islands, that administered the same tests last spring from the Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium. Scores decreased in every state, and California’s decline was about the smallest, retired educational testing specialist Douglas McRae said." This is the most important sentence in the artic…

"This is the most important sentence in the article. It points to a problem in the test itself - California's students didn't just get magically stupider." Yes. Having gone through public education in California the tests were treated as a total joke. They had no weight to your grades and there was zero incentive to do well. Often you wouldn't even get the results. In elementary school it was common for a teacher to…

At least they haven't gone down the UK route where kids a rigidly prepared for the multiple tests and GCSE /A levels.

There was a recent scandal where half way through A levels (final two years of high Scholl) if you where not predicted to get a B you got kicked out to protect the schools ranking.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#139

Post by cyphar »

elgenie wrote: post #133
maskedSlacker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply. Teaching adults who pay for the privilege of being in your class is VERY VERY different from teaching children who are forced to be in your class. The latter requires a very special skill se…

That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.

Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once (none of which are related or have known each other for a very long time), in a setting that is not their home, for longer periods of time than they are with their families, for the purpose of education and not play.

There are transferrable skills, but they're transferrable in the way that making buildings out of LEGO is transferrable to building actual buildings. There are large differences and a whole host of other challenges.

[I'm not a teacher, but I have a few friends that are teachers or training to be teachers.]

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#140

Post by cobookman »

in_cahoots wrote: post #122
cobookman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The white and Asian population is passing with a high rate. It's not the schools failing then. http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/sjm-l-...

In my city there are schools that are 80% white / Asian and schools that are 80% Latino / black. There’s almost nothing in between. To go to one of the majority-white / Asian schools you need to live in neighborhoods where the houses are easily 3x the cost of the houses in Latino /black neighborhoods. There are few if any apartments to rent. These schools routinely have fundraisers where parents are asked to donate t…

So it's not the schools fault, but California policies.

Thinks like housing, school districting, and sanctuary state.

I don't think it's fair to blame the teachers or education curriculum.

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