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VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

reuters.com

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Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#131

Post by dom0 »

ythn wrote: post #101
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

> And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Germany is cool that its citizens conducted international fraud at a scale the world has never seen?

I don't think this statement is correct. The diesel emissions scandal is hardly a new scale in terms of international fraud — just think about banking.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#132

Post by garaetjjte »

paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #76
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They killed people ffs You say that as though they shot them or discussed the possible body count in a meeting. Sure, people died as a far downstream result of a bunch of cars polluting a lot more than they supposedly did. The effect is far enough downstream that it's not really relevant. The alternative to VW breaking the law was not a pollution free world. People die as a result of things that are technically prev…

>Sure, people died as a far downstream result of a bunch of cars polluting a lot more than they supposedly did Breaking antipollution rules was pretty close upstream. Say boss wants to dumps cyanide into water supply, asks you to switch samples used for testing. Close enough for me to blow whistle. It's pretty well known NOx shorten our lives (NOx + H20 = nitric acids in lungs) >a bunch of cars polluting a lot more t…

I might be wrong, but isn't using EGR (to reduce NOx) actually increase particulates in exhaust?

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#133

Post by dom0 »

alkonaut wrote: post #120
bitmapbrother wrote: post #103

I was watching a german program on the VW scandal and was surprised to learn that the German government allowed VW to issue a software patch to correct the problem instead of offering to repair or compensate owners for the cars they purchased. Even with the software patch the vehicles still released emissions that were well above the norm. Also, I don't believe any VW executives have ever been charged in Germany.

I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20% performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen. So: if it was that easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first place?? Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over the limit. And I think this is a story that i…

> That also answers why the German government is giving them some leeway here: it's not exactly in their interest to kill Volkswagen.

While the federal government does not have a direct stake (apart from all the tax euros), the fine state of Lower Saxony holds a 20 % share (which actually causes the MP and his economics minister to always be on the board of directors).

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#134

Post by dom0 »

garaetjjte wrote: post #132
paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, people died as a far downstream result of a bunch of cars polluting a lot more than they supposedly did Breaking antipollution rules was pretty close upstream. Say boss wants to dumps cyanide into water supply, asks you to switch samples used for testing. Close enough for me to blow whistle. It's pretty well known NOx shorten our lives (NOx + H20 = nitric acids in lungs) >a bunch of cars polluting a lot more t…

I might be wrong, but isn't using EGR (to reduce NOx) actually increase particulates in exhaust?

Correct, EGR increases particulates across the board. Another alternative is to reduce NOx creation in the burning process, which also increases particulate emissions and DPF clogging.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#135

Post by joering2 »

rurban wrote: post #81
fluxsauce wrote: post #6

Not questioning his innocence, but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard? EDIT: FTA > U.S. prosecutors have charged eight current and former Volkswagen executives in connection with the diesel emissions cheating probe. Liang is one of the lowest-ranking executives charged so far. > Another VW executive, Oliver Schmidt, has pleaded guilty and is scheduled to be sentenced in Detroit on Dec. 6.…

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

I must say I'm troubled about recent political situation in Germany.. for so many years they been a real good example in Europe how to lead, despite the fact they start the WW2. But now there is no free speech (you cannot shout Heil Hitler - that might be long prison sentence) and just recently there been article here how Germany court system doesn't believe in freedom of speech. Now this.

If there truly won't be any consequences for those involved (or extradited) then I really put Germany next to Russia, Ukraine and Kazakstan, and will make sure all my friends and family avoid it during their travel plans.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#136

Post by dubyah »

quakeguy wrote: post #106
okreallywtf wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

In the land of "rolling coal" (0.0), and no TÜV+AU (0),(1), any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein (1) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung (non english WP link, basically it means "emission checking") Edit: (0.0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

"Rolling coal" remains an illegal modification, practiced by scofflaws. TÜVs are not immune to conflicts of interests.[0] And while generally not a separate sticker from annual car registrations, annual or biennial emissions testings are carried out by most states.[1]

>any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection.

Perhaps it's because the EU lacks the authority of the member states to regulate & police emission laws. They started legal proceedings against their member states precisely because of their inaction.

"The European Commission on Thursday began the so-called "infringement procedures," calling Germany, Britain, Spain and Luxembourg to account for not imposing the same kind of penalties Volkswagen faced in the United States for using illegal software to mask health-harming emissions."[2]

Isn't that market protection as well?

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/business/international/co...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...

[2]: http://www.dw.com/en/eu-launches-legal-case-against-germany-...

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#137

Post by eropple »

joering2 wrote: post #135
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

I must say I'm troubled about recent political situation in Germany.. for so many years they been a real good example in Europe how to lead, despite the fact they start the WW2. But now there is no free speech (you cannot shout Heil Hitler - that might be long prison sentence) and just recently there been article here how Germany court system doesn't believe in freedom of speech. Now this. If there truly won't be any…

Germany has had laws against Nazi symbolism and activity for decades. This isn't new. "Now there is no free speech" is the rewriting of history--and it smells pretty disingenuous.

And Reporters Without Borders ranks Germany sixteenth in the world as far as press freedom goes. The United States is forty-third, behind such leading lights as Belize and Burkina Faso. The understanding that is that support of Nazism serves primarily as a declaration of the intent to commit violence, and the state reacting thereto, sure doesn't seem to be a problem.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#138

Post by leipert »

vinay427 wrote: post #127
DominikPeters wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are German citizens, then the German constitution prevents the state from extraditing them (to a non-EU country). https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_16.html

It's strange to me that many countries sign "bilateral" extradition treaties with Germany or other countries with similar policies such as Brazil.

Well. Is there any case where any western country did extradite their own citizen for non-spionage, non-military, non-war and non-capital crime? I hope not.

I certainly do not approve of the scam and deception VW did (and possibly other automobile manufacturers?), but I think I do not approve extraditing citizens of your own country for some non-capital crime. Or even some capital crimes for that matter. I (and most of the other Germans and EU citizens [1]) oppose death penalties. So extraditing someone to the US, which could result in death penalty if someone committed a murder, would be a really big ethical and/or diplomatic issue.

[1]: http://www.eidhr.eu/highlights/death-penalty

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#139

Post by ams6110 »

dom0 wrote: post #130
wl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between a few rednecks illegally modifying their personal vehicles and a company selling millions of vehicles that fail emissions standards and trying to cover it up.

> selling millions of vehicles VW sold approximately 475000 affected diesel vehicles in the US (compared to approx. 84.5 million car sales in the same time period).

This has always been my problem with the whole case. Yes they violated the law and yes they probably should be some punishment but the real impact was almost nothing, the vehicles would have met the restrictions of only a few years prior, and the limits are almost entirely arbitrary and politically motivated.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#140

Post by leipert »

okreallywtf wrote: post #97
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

Maybe because the Volkswagen AG employs 0.6 million people worldwide, 220 thousand of them in Germany?
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