Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country • Hacker News Board

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#131

Post by Hasknewbie » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:19 AM UTC

sattoshi wrote: post #4

Extra discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q433o/percentage_... I am really curious about a more thourough breakdown of these numbers. I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives.

Counterpoint: during the occupation of France by the Nazis, a disproportionate amount of the French resistance were immigrants[1]. In fact the second (after Jean Moulin) most famous group that was caught was the "Manouchian network", whose members were almost all immigrants.

Likewise the Free French Forces (i.e. French military who refused to surrender in 1940) operating under British command were at least two-third colonials and/or immigrants.

[1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-real-story-of-the-french-re...

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#132

Post by lorenzfx » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #126

lorenzfx wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very glad that your and a lot of other people's ancestors didn't think like that or we would probably all live under a fascist regime. edit: a word

Definitely grateful for the sacrifices that have been made in the past, but I'm looking at things based on how the world is set up today. It has become a much smaller place -- people and capital can move around more easily. I've personally never had a very strong national identity (others do seem to have that), and I think in part it's because it has become so easy to move around. And if you travel a bit, you realise…

I'm not saying that you are wrong (and I really hope you are right), but the European elites had exactly the same perception before the outbreak of World War I. Google "first globalization".

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#133

Post by Inconel » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #112

keganunderwood wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how this is possible outside of science fiction but I wonder how popular military service would be on a historical timeline, all else being equal but the variables being we turn on or off a livable basic income and free of cost health care (like medicare) for all. Would people still be eager to join the US military?

The military as a refuge for those who would otherwise have a hard time finding work/education/healthcare etc is probably a US phenomenon - and the US military probably would be less attractive if more progressive politics meant better conditions for all. In countries with pro armies outside the US I believe it's more like any other job such as a policeman. In countries with conscription it's not even a job, it's mor…

I don't have a citation or link handy at the moment, and I don't have the ability to find one right now, and I'm going by memory so I will preface this by saying it's entirely possible that I am wrong here, but I believe in the case of the US the military, both the officer and enlisted ranks, have been increasingly coming from fewer families and increasingly wealthier families. This isn't to say they have been coming from the top income brackets, although this may be true for the officer ranks, but instead solidly middle class backgrounds.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#134

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:43 AM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #129

CalRobert wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" loved ones to a more safer place." The trouble arises when there are no more safe places, or when you along with millions of other people are desperately trying to get to said safer place (note the refugees currently in limbo in Turkey and elsewhere) Where would you go when Western Europe is invaded? New Zealand? North Africa? The former is hard to get to, and any trouble befalling Europe could spread to the latter…

South Africa? South America? Australia? Hell, even Greenland could work. They might not all be optimal choices, but anything is better than war. Guess it would depend on the situation, and where the conflict is. Part of it is making sure you have resources to pay for stuff if something goes wrong, e.g. don't hold all of your money in a local bank account. In such a situation, if all your funds are held in local bank…

> South Africa? South America? Australia?

While as a Belgian you'd be able to enter there and stay for a short while, you'd still have to comply with their residence visa process or hope that their refugee provision is generous.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#135

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:46 AM UTC

lorenzfx wrote: post #120

democracy wrote: post #71

There will never be a total WW2-like conflict so for the majority of people it is just a nice mind exercise. But how many people are prepared to fight a war against propoganda? To defend freedom of speech? To defend opposite political views and opinions? It is scary but in the 1st and 2nd world you can still lose friends and even your job if you openly express your political views. People are afraid to express their…

Before WW1 people also believed that large scale European conflict couldn't happen any more because of the economic entanglement. In hindsight, that notion looks pretty stupid.

Currently we believe it's impossible due to nuclear weapons - there wouldn't be anything left to fight over or with.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#136

Post by markvdb » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:48 AM UTC

lorenzfx wrote: post #124

charlesdm wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Belgian too, but would personally never join the army. I would however, find a way to relocate myself + loved ones to a more safer place. I would totally give up on this country. Home is where you hang your hat, and being with the people you care about (and knowing that they are safe) matters a lot more than some border on a map.

I am very glad that your and a lot of other people's ancestors didn't think like that or we would probably all live under a fascist regime. edit: a word

Somewhat related, I have noticed there seems to be an abstraction that is often easier for Belgians to make.

One can at the same time make a stand for $GOOD_THING/against $BAD_THING ánd have zero country loyalty/patriotism.

It's easier and more efficient even, because unbound by country loyalty, one is less limited in how to make a stand.

Do you have difficulties imagining this? Imagine yourself in the era that shall not be named for fear of Godwin's law. Think of ways to make a difference back then.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#137

Post by apexalpha » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:49 AM UTC

Is the question asked "Fight for your country" as in defend it from foreign invaders, like my country (NL) was during World War 2, or like Ukraine is now by Russia?

Or is this "Fight for your country" as in join team America in invading Afghanistan and Iraq and ?

Because the first one: probably, yes. The second? No thank you.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#138

Post by charlesdm » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:52 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #134

charlesdm wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Africa? South America? Australia? Hell, even Greenland could work. They might not all be optimal choices, but anything is better than war. Guess it would depend on the situation, and where the conflict is. Part of it is making sure you have resources to pay for stuff if something goes wrong, e.g. don't hold all of your money in a local bank account. In such a situation, if all your funds are held in local bank…

> South Africa? South America? Australia? While as a Belgian you'd be able to enter there and stay for a short while, you'd still have to comply with their residence visa process or hope that their refugee provision is generous.

I guess the logical country to go to would be one which allows access through investment, hence another reason to have a rainy day fund. Money, while unfair, essentially buys residency in many countries.

This sounds extremely selfish, just writing this.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#139

Post by metafunctor » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:53 AM UTC

In Finland, the army exists for the purpose of defending Finland against attack. Hence the name: Finnish Defence Forces.

Finnish males serve a mandatory 6-12 months in the Finnish Defence Forces. It's a citizen's duty here; some people opt for a civil service duty.

Thus, when asked a question like this, most Finns will automatically assume defending Finland against a military attack.

Re: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing to Fight a War for Their Country

#140

Post by Hasknewbie » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 11:55 AM UTC

draugadrotten wrote: post #27

Is the question "Will you fight a war for your Country?" even valid in today's Europe, with open borders and mass immigration of millions of non-citizens. Why would a German fight for the social construct "Germany", when his neighbour was given asylum on grounds of escaping military duty in his homeland?

>> his neighbour was given asylum on grounds of escaping military duty in his homeland

Ha, yes, those people refusing to enlist for either a dictator gassing his own people, or a crazed islamist death cult. The nerve!

Beside the absurdity of your comment (I'll go on a limb and make the guess that you are, in fact, not German?), regarding the "millions of non-citizens/immigrants" thing, I'll just point out that the most Gung-Ho country in the West, the USA, is also the one with the largest number of immigrants.