Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#131

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:23 PM UTC

kareemm wrote: post #127

boona wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guess what happens when supply increases? So we should reduce the supply by forcing licensing? That would lower employment in the field since it would require accreditation i.e we would get an increase in unemployment which is what reducing the supply means. And Canadian companies can't afford developers as is, and you suggest increasing the cost of said developers which would force Canadian companies to either cha…

> And Canadian companies can't afford developers as is, and you suggest increasing the cost of said developers which would force Canadian companies to either change field or close their doors. If Canadian companies can't afford to pay developers what the market bears out, they will close because those developers will get paid what they're worth somewhere else. That's capitalism. You're suggesting Canadian developers…

Canadian developers should compete in the market and should not make up new BS laws to keep out competition. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

We are specifically arguing that the market should determine salaries. Don't put up barriers to entry. Let the market work it out.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#132

Post by goodcanadian » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

legolas2412 wrote: post #111

uw_rob wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the big companies pay less in Canada. I love my home but I am making 3x the money as an intern than I would as a full time dev in Toronto. Unfortunately I cannot stay.

Huh, could you share the rough numbers? I'm shocked to hear this. Even In India Google/MSFT pay atleast 25k$ annually to new hires (not including stocks), Purchasing power wise that is around 100k$, right where the US salaries are. US interns get paid around 6-8k a month, let's be generous and say 9k$. Are you saying that as a full time dev you could only earn 3k$ a month? Looks like you could earn more as a garbage…

I am not the person you replied to, but US$3000 is about CA$4000 or CA$48000 per year. For a junior software development position, that does seem to be in the ballpark of what gets offered in Canada.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#133

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

binarymax wrote: post #78

UweSchmidt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With immigration you will definitively focus on highly educated people, people who have skills needed in the respective industries and who are likely to fit in well culturally. How would you regulate immigration?

I'd open up all the borders without restriction. It would be a madhouse for the first decade but then the world would be much better off in the long run. It would be the first step in a united planet rather than the pettiness we suffer now with individual competing states.

Uhh, how about instead, we let Europe do that. And then us in America and Canada can see how that works out for them.

The beauty of countries is that different countries can try vastly different things, and then we can look at the results afterwords and see which countries made good decisions and which made bad decisions.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#134

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #81

BrainInAJar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.

>"I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary." This is an honest question - is it worth living somewhere you "hate" for increased pay? Why not take less money and live in place that would make you happy?

Depends on the price. Everyone has one. (or at least SHOULD have one).

Here is an example. Would you accept 100 million dollars to work in Saudia Arabia for a year? I probably would. I'd do it for a year, and then retire.

People do lots of things where they are exchanging happiness now, for happiness in the future.

For him, it means that he can save up a whole bunch of money, and then retire 20 years earlier at the least.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#135

Post by didibus » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

eigenvector wrote: post #5

"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eage…

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV.

But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so.

I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay.

Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest difference. Most startup capitalize on the US market, and that's just easier and more accessible to do if you're US based.

In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in Canada, even with a large family. But compared to certain US cities, it's abysmal.

It's kind of crazy that in the US, a bachelor degree in CS can give you pay close to what doctors make. And a 9 month dev boot camp can have you earn similar to many university level degrees.

I'm not sure this will last forever. My point being, it's unclear if Canada's pay for tech is too low, or if some US cities pay is too high.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#136

Post by jstelly » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

cylinder wrote: post #100

shados wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almos…

Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?

It seems like firms that are large enough to manage multiple offices do exactly that. In the games industry electronic arts is a good example. They have offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Edmonton (a huge team grown out of the BioWare acquisition) and possibly other places in Canada.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#137

Post by JPKab » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

personjerry wrote: post #27

acchow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money after hiring more.

>Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money That is a pattern I've noticed in Canada in contrast to the US in fact; We settle for "good enough" or "profitable" but not the "moonshots" or strive to be "the best". Whether in tech, business, or even global influence, we are a "middle power" and we seem happy about it (my high school politics teacher explains that this is a result of constantly bein…

The beardy dude that started Vice (can't remember his name) has talked about disliking this aspect of Canadian culture.

He stated that they have a "cut the tall trees" mentality, and doesn't believe he could have been successful had he stayed in Canada.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#138

Post by abawany » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #113

alphonsegaston wrote: post #28

While I agree with this sentiment overall, what pay differential can compensate for a more general stability? It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. And by the same token, almost no amount of pay (within the tech spectrum) could convince me to live in the cities in Texas where right-wing extrem…

> It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster Serious question. How does the following situation work in Canada? You make a bunch of money and so you buy a house and car appropriate for your salary. You then get cancer (or your arm falls off, or whatever) and you lose your job. Who makes that house and car payment for you?

As I read it, the point being made is that healthcare costs are so out of whack in the US that they have to potential to bankrupt you manifold without insurance. If you have no savings, then certainly the question of who pays the mortgage is valid. However, healthcare is a good social net in Canada so when you get this arm-falling-off-cancer, you use your savings to pay for the house as long as you can and hope the healthcare safety net maximizes your life.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#139

Post by grotsnot » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

gricardo99 wrote: post #88

ohhhwell wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated tangent: It always baffle me how people view exchange rate as something that can "eat away your salary" and when you see people making statements like "it's so expensive in the UK, a pound is like 130% of a dollar". Makes me wonder if people who are only used to currencies that are roughly on the same scale view currencies in a different way than people who are used to 10x / 100x differences in currencies.…

I think you misunderstand the comment about exchange rate. In Canada, the price difference of goods with the U.S. is beyond just the exchange rate. Thus, you can convert a salary between USD and CAD, but that doesn't account for higher prices of goods in Canada (beyond exchange rate differences). This is why many Canadians shop in the U.S. (if feasible), or travel to the U.S. to make big purchases (such as cars). Whe…

IANAE but it sounds like when imports get cheaper, importers pocket as much of the the difference for as long as they can get away with it. When imports get more expensive, they pass on as much as they can to consumers as quickly as they can get away with it. Not terribly surprising for profit-driven behavior.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#140

Post by ska » Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #87

schwap wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing that choice. Is there the opportunity to be 'more' secure in the States? Sure. But being a developer in Canada is hardly a bleak proposition.

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almos…

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you.

People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual.

Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k.

Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job. You may have an opportunity for a different job at 2.5 timed salary, but mostly people don't

Much more realistic is a 30% bump, which is still on the high end giving you a disposable income multiple of 2.5, which isn't bad.

Anyway, the numbers vary a bit with higher salary and rates, but mostly people won't see anywhere near 3x, let alone 8x - unless they are comparing very different jobs.