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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#131

Post by eeZah7Ux »

crusso wrote: post #119
conanbatt wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being convicted to slavery is justice now?

I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.

Look up the word in a dictionary. It's perfectly legitimate and correct use of the term.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#132

Post by cm2187 »

kasparsklavins wrote: post #37
cm2187 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation must exist but it must also take the back seat to punishment. In Europe there is this strange concept that developed that crime is a sort of disease and that prisons are kind of hospital. So there is some expectation that a criminal will be "cured" when leaving jail. And many judges got to the thinking that crime is caused by poverty and since jail will not cure poverty we should not send criminals to…

What is the purpose of a prison? It's meant to rid the society of unwelcome individuals. Another way to get rid of "unwelcome individuals" is to provide rehabilitation, more opportunities, etc. This is better in the long term. Source: I'm European.

To me the purpose of the sentence is (by order of decreasing importance):

1. Reciprocity. The modern justice system is a social contract where the victim accepts not to seek revenge himself, which would give the powerful a complete impunity over the weaker. Instead the punishment will be applied by a greater force, historically the King or the local lord, now the justice system. If you tell a victim that we don't intend to punish the person who hurt him/her for the greater good of society, the victim will have a legitimate sentiment of injustice and may seek to take revenge directly (think of some Saudi prince committing rape in europe, it may be in the interest of the country to let him go, the economic impact of upsetting the Saudi may be much more than the grief of a victim). I think negating this aspect is extremely dangerous for a society (and I see this aspect completely negated in some European countries). But it is by no mean the only purpose (many crimes have no individual victim, like not paying your taxes).

2. Deterrence. Ideally you want criminals not to commit crimes in the first place because of the fear of consequences. If nothing happens you create impunity and you ultimately fuel more crime. Now prison is not a miracle deterrent. Some criminals are too dumb to consider the consequences when committing a crime, or are unafraid of some jail time. Also deterrence will have no impact of terrorists on a suicide mission. But it is an important role nevertheless.

3. Protecting society. Some criminals are deemed to do it again. In some instance the cost to society is low (consuming drug again) or high (rape or murder). In some cases the cost is too high for society to take a chance and the sentence is also a way to "take out" a criminal element and protect society. But this should be in fairly limited extreme cases. But you do not send Madoff to jail just to ensure he doesn't start a new Ponzi scheme. This is a secondary purpose of prison.

And of course rehabilitation should also happen during the execution of the sentence. We would only make the matter worse by not using the jail time to help criminals find a better way. But I do not believe this is either the primary purpose of a sentencing (hence it should take a back seat).

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#134

Post by kombucha2 »

chii wrote: post #48
FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the US court system not refund travel cost? I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing out loud for that one. No, they do not refund any cost you incur for going to court. Luckily, I wasn't accused of any drug crimes or they may have seized my car and kept it under then-existing asset forfeiture (legal theft) laws

if you were wrongly convicted of a crime, would the costs of your defense be somehow be re-imbursed or compensated?

Some states you get money, some states you are not entitled to any whatsoever.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#135

Post by kombucha2 »

tombrossman wrote: post #116
FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the US court system not refund travel cost? I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing out loud for that one. No, they do not refund any cost you incur for going to court. Luckily, I wasn't accused of any drug crimes or they may have seized my car and kept it under then-existing asset forfeiture (legal theft) laws

For future reference, if you or others reading this catch a bullshit charge like you describe, it is very likely that you can have a lawyer handle everything for you and it may be cheaper than the extra travel costs and missed work days. Even if you are supposedly 'required' to appear. I'm not a lawyer so my specific advice is to call a few and explain the situation, then hire one to handle everything for you. Even i…

At the end of my ordeal I had to pay 25 dollars of non-refundable "court costs". There is a Supreme Court to be decided on soon which should determine the constitutionality of this practice even after one has been exonerated.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#136

Post by mowenz »

coldtea wrote: post #86
mowenz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright people solve them by going at them with their ingenuity. The fastest way towards progress is fair and honest competition. Government can regulate the market by setting the goals: low violence inside, low costs, low re-offences of released, high security, high educat…

> Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Because the solution ("making prison a market") is what caused the problem in the first place. And because some things, like treating people in prison humanely, you don't want to live to the lowest bidder (though even that would be an improvement over the worse than third world s…

There is actually no competitive market here.

I agree there is a lot of danger in profiting from incarceration. However, it would be good if someone figured out how to solve the problem and a profit motive is a reliable way to do it.

In other words, the profit motive would have to work towards eliminatin the problem--that's my point about a properly regulated market.

Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#137

Post by chrshawkes »

csmark wrote: post #60

The USA has ~5% of the world's population but 22% of the world's prisoners. Financial profiting from prisoners: Prison Labor - paid $0.93-0.16/hr California Prisons didn't want to release prisoners because they would loose cheap labor..Courts said they had to: https://thinkprogress.org/california-tells-court-it-cant-rel... 30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit f…

Well we have laws and plenty of dangerous people who belong in these prisons. Another thing to consider is other countries will execute their prisoners over drug dealing where we put them in prison. There is also the fact that we are the third most populated country and a melting pot combined with plenty of terrible neighborhoods of all ethnicity's.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#138

Post by eeZah7Ux »

agumonkey wrote: post #51

Gonna throw some weird idea about prison, what about: - Smaller but individual cells. (have to think about how to keep them very clean) - No outside yard for crowd. - No plural bathroom. Everything you do is for the benefit of society 90% and the rest for you. - Clean something outside, plant trees I don't know, so you get walk, sun and forest time. - You can read books, or some journals. - You can talk to old wise p…

FYI: this is how it works in various other countries

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#139

Post by [deleted] »

shagie wrote: post #106
andy_ppp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see what would happen in prison if these Harvard types destabilised the market...

That was recently answered... http://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-series-casts-bernie-mad... > “Bernie really was a successful businessman with quite original insights into the market, and he’s continued applying his business instincts in prison,” Fishman said. “At one point, he cornered the hot chocolate market. He bought up every package of Swiss Miss from the commissary and sold it for a profit in the prison yard…

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