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DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

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Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#131

Post by Spooky23 »

specialist wrote: post #124
noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

There have been many first hand accounts from pilots about their industry's deteriorating work conditions. The denial and pedantry by the Freedom Market™ zealots is exhausting. Being highly trained and performing safety critical work does not exempt pilots from the predation of C (executive management) level exploitation. The root cause is the glut of labor, progressively reducing Labor's bargaining power, since the…

Been there, done that.

You need labor laws with teeth.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#133

Post by paulmd »

jim-jim-jim wrote: post #110
dx034 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay. Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because…

> It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight If you're away from what you'd rather be doing at the company's discretion, you're working.

You might think that, but the law actually currently uses a concept called "portal-to-portal". Companies only need to pay for time that is "integral and indispensable" to the labor in question. In short if you aren't actually earning money for the company, they don't necessarily need to pay you.

It originated with mine workers who would have to take a long mine-elevator ride (30m+) to and from the vein, and companies didn't want to pay for that time. They successfully argued that the time spent riding the elevator was essentially part of your commute, just like driving to work, and they shouldn't have to pay for it.

Lately it's also been applied to things like Amazon warehouse workers, who need to stand in line for up to 30 minutes to go through a metal detector and be frisked on their way out of the warehouse. That time is legally allowed to be unpaid.

In short - even if the work is in some sense "necessary" as a condition of your employment (you would be fired if you didn't wait through Amazon's frisk line), if it's not actually a primary part of the job (the thing they are paying you to do) then they don't have to pay you for it.

The FAA may mandate downtime, but that's not part of worker safety per-se. Consider if the pilot were taking that downtime on the ground - you obviously wouldn't be paying them to do that. Nor would you pay a long-haul trucker taking their downtime.

The company could argue that the "portal" in this sense is the cockpit door (rather than the door of the plane), and that being trapped in the plane during your off-duty time is just an unpleasant aspect of the job (like a miner being trapped in a mine elevator during some of their off-hours). You're perfectly free to watch a DVD or whatever [0] so you're not really on-duty.

This is a pretty shitty thing in labor law overall, but as a descriptive statement - that's how things are right now. If the wheels aren't turning, you ain't earning.

Or at least if you're earning it's through the grace of your employer, not because they're legally obligated to.

[0] Interestingly enough, the FAA doesn't actually mandate sleep during off-hours. Which is a big problem since many pilots are paid so poorly nowadays - they end up flipping burgers to make ends meet, instead of getting the sleep they need. It's caused several crashes so far.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#135

Post by throwaway2048 »

vijayr wrote: post #118
dx034 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay. Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because…

cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. That maybe so, but it isn't right to say "suck it up, there are others who have it worse". Both groups are treated badly and both groups deserve empathy

Its easy to be smug about it when you are making $150k in a software development job however...

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#136

Post by Dylan16807 »

jim-jim-jim wrote: post #110
dx034 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay. Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because…

> It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight If you're away from what you'd rather be doing at the company's discretion, you're working.

Yes, you're working, but being paid to sit/sleep before being paid to do your shift sounds like a good way to clear half a 40 hour workweek in a single day.

Unless they didn't pay or he wasn't able to relax in that time, which he should have mentioned in the article.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#137

Post by Dylan16807 »

rayiner wrote: post #116
dev_head_up wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I'd believe anyone who said they do job "for the good of the economy." It's a laughable statement really.

I think this view is very wrong. Lots of people take pride in the fact that they're doing some socially valuable job. That might not be their primary motivation but it's an important one.

A lot of people get into jobs to help people, or help society. But to help "the economy"? I'm skeptical (in the sense of doing a day job because markets need it, not a job that's making the economy as a whole more efficient). If the market doesn't pay for a job, then "the economy" doesn't need that job.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#138

Post by TheCoelacanth »

artumi-richard wrote: post #15

That reference about DHL being German doesn't sit nicely with me. Germany is much more socialist than the USA.

Yes, the problem isn't Germany's companies; the problem is the lax regulation and weak unions in the US. Both foreign and domestic companies frequently mistreat their employees in the US.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#139

Post by FireBeyond »

dx034 wrote: post #100
megablast wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they love flying Do they really? I mean, if you love driving, do you become a bus driver? It is not like it is flying your cessna around the place.

I only know the situation in Europe. But here, many get the license by taking out a loan without any prospect of employment. They then have to fly in Asia for dodgy airlines for some years to get enough hours to be considered even for a low-cost airline such as Ryanair. Getting a job at a full-service carrier or even long-haul is next to impossible. These are usually people with a good high school degree and often ev…

Yeah, realistically, the best way to get a full service carrier pilot position is to go military, early, get your certs, training, time in there, and then make your way to civilian life. The big airlines tend to love military pilots.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#140

Post by iamatworknow »

thesumofall wrote: post #49
tome wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's news to me! Throughout my life I've subconsciously picked up that pilots are very well paid. Did I get the wrong impression?

Depends on the airline. Pilots of major legacy carriers (and not their low-cost spin-offs) are typically really well paid (sometimes excessively so). In Germany I'm aware of cases of >500k$ annually for end-of-their-career pilots. I believe the situation in the US is similar. However, pilots of low-cost carriers earn significantly less. In Europe I heard of salaries in the range of 50k$ annually. I would guess cargo…

Most American pilots have to start their careers at regional airlines and many pay under $30k/year to start: https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...
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