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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#131

Post by whatever_dude »

sidlls wrote: post #80
whatever_dude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

> Why would that be absurd?

There's more about specialization than just the area. To stay with the example, there may be many reasons why someone would want to hire an interpreter for a given language, and for someone to be willing to do the job, without it ever making sense to pay twice what a good average living wage is on the area. The "pay higher if it's high demand" excuse is cutthroat capitalism, IMO, and ignores the fact that the employer might not actually be trying to exploit someone but actually bring something that their customer base/community needs, something they wouldn't get otherwise. It's not about being "desperate enough" to hire a foreigner - in many cases, as in certain niche skills, a foreigner might be the best option.

Also remember the H1B is supposed to be a temporary. It's classified as a non-immigrant visa. Temporary need for a foreigner also exists.

> Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

That's exactly my point, and it's one of the many problems with H1B. Tech workers flood the request and suddenly everyone is just thinking about a salary floor cap because tech has higher salaries than other roles. But there are other roles and businesses that could actually benefit from foreign workers, but they're all crushed by how large tech is instead.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#132

Post by lineindc »

devmunchies wrote: post #104
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

> Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

Found the fascist nazi bigot. /s

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#133

Post by mywittyname »

jacquesm wrote: post #117
devmunchies wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

America never needed immigration, not since the first European landed there. Historically immigration has initially always been to the advantage of the immigrant, only later does the balance shift the other way and do subsequent generations contribute substantially to the bottom line. > Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. First of all, th…

Historically America absolutely needed immigration.

Early America lacked a lot of skilled laborers. England was opposed to allowing skilled workers to emigrate to the US for fear of the US competing with England. The preferred the US to provide them with cheap agricultural goods in exchange for high-priced steel, tools, and weapons.

It wasn't until the mid 1800s that the US began work on the first steel mill because they couldn't get the expertise necessary to build one. At the time, Britain produced about half of all steel consumed in the world, once the US finally imported the skills necessary to produce steel, Britain's share of the global plunged by half.

I'm certain this story can be repeated for many more industries throughout history, from chemistry, rockets, medicine, and technology. So yes, America has always needed immigrants.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#135

Post by testUser69 »

jacquesm wrote: post #91
anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

This is the lamest argument that people use. This is a non-argument and I have no idea why it gets upvoted. You don't understand the economics of the situation.

For one thing America isn't the only nation they can go to, go steal wealth from Canada.

Second, for a very long time immigrants did help build America, but they were literally poor and willing to work mundane jobs for no minimum wage, and they came over here without being guaranteed a job.

America was in a state of high economic entropy when it was first founded and we've now reached a state of low economic entropy. Letting everyone in the breadbasket live in poverty so that a few thousand people can go be corporate elitists is what is really selfish.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#136

Post by whatever_dude »

testUser69 wrote: post #116
542458 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

If an interpreter is so rare that one can't be found in the US and they need to be hired internationally, then maybe it's worth it to pay $100,000?

"It's worth it" only applies if a company is directly going to make a ton of money out of that person.

Not every company operates like that. I know it's hard to believe, or even comprehend, in the tech world.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#137

Post by cortuso »

jordanb wrote: post #64
cortuso wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college,…

> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. So you're saying the incentives would work as intended..

Again, my understanding of IT market, is that shortage of candidates Silicon Valley, and not only, so complains about, is because there are NO local candidates willing to take that job, and not because "all those indians steal our young grads jobs". If by saying "So you're saying the incentives would work as intended" you mean minimum salary wage will raise because of that, don't think so.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#138

Post by tankenmate »

tankenmate wrote: post #114
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor I'll piss on 'em / That's what the Statue of Bigotry says / Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death / and get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard

I guess some people aren't Lou Reed fans. Some people saw this state of affairs long before it happened.

p.s. this song was on the top of the modern rock charts for 4 weeks

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#139

Post by Retric »

542458 wrote: post #62
whatever_dude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

I disagree. If you are not willing to pay 100k then finding someone is not the problem. You just don't want to pay market rates.

The point of H-1B is when salary is not the problem.

PS: Remember, someone on an H-1B can leave your employment. Paying market rates is supposed to keep that from happening, thus the intent is to remove a shortage not lower pay.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#140

Post by boomboomsubban »

devmunchies wrote: post #104
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

We were fourth in 1910, and moving to third seems more to do with the breakup of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio...
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