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Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

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Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#131

Post by masklinn »

nephrite wrote: post #40

I wish all emojis just disappeared. They're stupid, don't add any value, waste unicode space and developers' time.

> They're stupid

That's literally just your opinion, users find them useful and convenient.

> don't add any value

1. they provide user value, that's why they were integrated in smartphones in the first place

2. they provided significant technical value in forcing developers to correctly handle astral codepoints, which they previously had no incentive to. Case in point, MySQL only added support for astral characters (at all, not even correct handling just storing them) in 5.5.3 in 2010, the same year emoji were added to Unicode and about 2 years after emoji were added to iOS

The new crop of "variable" emoji is doing the same thing with composite grapheme clusters (aka that codepoints don't map 1:1 to user-visible "characters")

> waste unicode space

Utter bullshit.

As of Unicode 9 there are 1085 "emoji" (including back-specified dingbats and the like going back to Unicode 1.0, according to current specifications Unicode had 139 emoji in 5.2, before japanese emoji were formally added in 6.0) in a codespace of 1114112 with 128237 allocations as of 9.0.

By comparison, the Tangut block added in Unicode 9.0 contains 6125 codepoints, and the separate Tangut Components block contains an additional 755. There are no extant Tangut users and we have no knowledge of the script having been used after 1502.

> developers' time.

Tough shit?

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#133

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

ekianjo wrote: post #93

Is thhe author butthurt or something? How about apple making it almost impossible to install Linux distros on Mac hardware, while there is no technical reason to do so? Same thing.

No, not the same thing. Apple never claimed to have opposite principles.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#134

Post by sjm »

errx wrote: post #56
sjm wrote: post #25

This kind of thing is exactly why I will always support and use Mitsuharu Yamamoto's macOS Emacs port ( https://bitbucket.org/mituharu/emacs-mac ), which has been consistently rock solid and committed to implementing nice to haves on macOS that this sort of political bullshit holds back on official development. Homebrew tap here: https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport

he is the author of the commit http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=934461...

Well he seems to have re-enabled colour bitmap fonts at some point on his fork. I'm running his latest emacs-mac 25.1.1 @ head and it supports native emoji.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#135

Post by leni536 »

grive wrote: post #122
raverbashing wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fairly easy to insert images into a buffer in Emacs. Sure and how it is represented in the underlying file? Is this platform independent? Emoji are just a part of Unicode. As far as I care, I wouldn't mind if Emacs would just render it as [GRINNING FACE U+1f600]

We're not talking about Emojis, but coloured typeface. Emojis are part of Unicode, coloured typeface are not.

Typefaces are not part of Unicode, coloured or not.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#136

Post by laughingman123 »

TheCoreh wrote: post #112
laughingman123 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strong adherence to "political bullshit" is why such forks are possible. The Free software movement needs a few extremists like RMS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Emacs was licensed under a more liberal license (MIT, BSD) such forks would still be possible. (Non-free forks would also be possible)

The question is can such licenses alone (without radical copyleft GNU) can sustain the free software movement's spirit.

I side with camp which thinks copyleft is major way to push towards free software.

It comes down to wether you ideologically support idea that software should essentially be distributed with the source code always. (RMS's view).

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#137

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

cyphar wrote: post #128
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #126

Get off your high horse, Richard: In fighting software that restricts its users and doesn't respect their freedoms, you've become the thing you despise. Oh, and the rest of the Emacs team: Don't think you're getting away with this, either: it's despicable. I may well actually work on exporting the GCC AST in protest.

> In fighting software that restricts its users and doesn't respect their freedoms, you've become the thing you despise. GNU Emacs is still under the GPL. Feel free to modify it to re-add the feature that was removed. The only reason you have the freedom to do that is because of Richard Stallman's "high horse". > Oh, and the rest of the Emacs team: Reminder that GNU Emacs is part of GNU/Linux, and thus features are d…

>Reminder that GNU Emacs is part of GNU/Linux, and thus features are developed against GNU/Linux first and other operating systems later.

Yes, but that's terrible. Making your software demonstrably worse for a subset of your users isn't acceptable. If any other group did this, you'd likely be enraged. What if .NET Core dropped support for an API on Linux? Would you really be comforted by the people saying: "it's open source: fork it if you want the features back"?

>Have fun using the freedoms that the GPL grants you while protesting against the movement that caused free software to exist in the first place. Hypocrisy is so much fun.

I have no wish to protest GNU as a whole. I do wish to protest the pig-headedness of RMS and others, which keeps us from actually moving Emacs and other packages forward. Not allowing Emacs to touch the GCC AST isn't protecting freedoms: it's needlessly obstructive, and utterly pointless.

It's the same situation here: not patching in functionality until there's cross-platform support? Okay. Actively removing functionality that doesn't work cross-platform (yet)? Not cool.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#138

Post by cyphar »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #137
cyphar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fighting software that restricts its users and doesn't respect their freedoms, you've become the thing you despise. GNU Emacs is still under the GPL. Feel free to modify it to re-add the feature that was removed. The only reason you have the freedom to do that is because of Richard Stallman's "high horse". > Oh, and the rest of the Emacs team: Reminder that GNU Emacs is part of GNU/Linux, and thus features are d…

>Reminder that GNU Emacs is part of GNU/Linux, and thus features are developed against GNU/Linux first and other operating systems later. Yes, but that's terrible. Making your software demonstrably worse for a subset of your users isn't acceptable. If any other group did this, you'd likely be enraged. What if .NET Core dropped support for an API on Linux? Would you really be comforted by the people saying: "it's open…

> Making your software demonstrably worse for a subset of your users isn't acceptable.

Which is why they removed a feature after realising it made GNU/Linux users have a worse experience than on other platforms.

> What if .NET Core dropped support for an API on Linux? Would you really be comforted by the people saying: "it's open source: fork it if you want the features back"?

Yes, because I guarantee that someone would fork it. Just like someone already has a fork of Emacs that is macOS-friendly. And it probably already has the patch reverted.

> Actively removing functionality that doesn't work cross-platform (yet)? Not cool.

It was a mistake for them to merge it, and they're fixing their mistake. That's how I see it. GNU packages have to be "portable to GNU", specifically all of their features have to be portable to GNU. A feature which is not portable to GNU is not a feature that the package should have -- otherwise you're both encouraging people to use proprietary operating systems as well as fragmenting your userbase.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#139

Post by crististm »

Annatar wrote: post #124
crististm wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove z option in tar? Where did that come from?

From the fact that tar is a tape archiver, and according to the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" it should empathically not dub as a (de)compressor. GNU implements tools inside of other tools. Emacs is a perfect example if that.

In that case you mean option -x not -z.

Either way, there are several philosophies and schools of thought. Many of them yield good results in different situations. "Do one thing..." is not the same as "do _only_ one thing..." and there are exceptions to the rules and _we_ made the rules so _we_ can/may change them.

Sticking to rules when they don't make sense is stubbornness and locks one in a local maximum.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#140

Post by Sanddancer »

laughingman123 wrote: post #136
TheCoreh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Emacs was licensed under a more liberal license (MIT, BSD) such forks would still be possible. (Non-free forks would also be possible)

The question is can such licenses alone (without radical copyleft GNU) can sustain the free software movement's spirit. I side with camp which thinks copyleft is major way to push towards free software. It comes down to wether you ideologically support idea that software should essentially be distributed with the source code always. (RMS's view).

I think software like LLVM, PostgreSQL, Xorg, Hadoop, etc have shown that you don't need a radical copyleft to push forward free software. You need something better than exists elsewhere, and this kind of behavior from Stallman holds back free software out of fear of bogeymen.
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