The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#131

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:41 AM UTC

laurencerowe wrote: post #127

jacquesm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

> But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. [...] In a car centric society the last thing you want to do is to occupy a full lane sized for vehicles but going 1/3rd their speed. I think this overestimates the antagonism car drivers feel towards cyclists and underestimates the danger of simply not being noticed. When I cycled, I usually found that cars would give me as much s…

I've had (full) beercans thrown at me in traffic in the USA just for cycling, I'd rather avoid playing dodgem with SUVs and pick-up trucks driven by people that feel that roads are not for sharing with vehicles other than cars. To boldly occupy a whole lane is something that might work in a few cities that have considerable bike traffic but I don't think that is a universal rule to live by as a cyclist.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#132

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:42 AM UTC

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets.

Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#133

Post by hueving » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:43 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #125

ams6110 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not get rid of bike lanes where you have street parking?

Where the interests of cyclists and drivers conflict, we should prioritize cycling, because it has no negative externalities, requires much cheaper infrastructure, is good for health, etc.

If it causes the drivers to do something extremely inefficient (e.g. drive around the block for a half hour looking for parking), then it's a negative externality. Cyclists do not exist in a vacuum.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#134

Post by sixQuarks » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:43 AM UTC

I simply don't understand people that swing doors wide open without even a thought of looking. It's just plain stupidity

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#135

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:49 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #119

jacquesm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

> Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. Having commuted by bicycle for almost a decade, this is the theory. In practice, if you take the lane, virtually every driver will simply move over one lane to pass. Some consideration needs to be taken, of course — if doing this is causing traffic behind you, you should move over and let cars pass (or bike…

You are likely young and able to keep up with traffic. But not everybody is young and able to keep up with traffic. Older people will cycle slower (and are far more vulnerable if they should fall or get into an accident), and kids are going to get clobbered if they should occupy whole lanes.

Keep in mind that any advice that you give for a class of traffic should apply equally to all members of that class, not just to you.

And once a situation develops (such as causing traffic behind you) it is a little late to 'bike faster' (which may simply not be possible depending on age / wind / other conditions) or 'find an alternate route'.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#136

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #132

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets.

Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#137

Post by Tharkun » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:56 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #132

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

Surreal? Hardly. There's room for plenty more. Most UK (hell, most countries') cities have extremely crappy bicycle infrastructure. Which is stupid, considering the many benefits of having a population of cyclists. Fewer road deaths, less obesity, less air pollution etc.

Dutch (and Danish) infrastructure is pretty decent.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#138

Post by Tharkun » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:58 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #123

ptaipale wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili... : > It is a myth that is really only believed outside the Netherlands: “Because there is strict liability in the Netherlands, drivers are more cautious around cyclists, and that leads to more cycling” > There are a number of (false) assumptions that lead to such an assertion. The first being that drivers are always at fault when they are in a…

Yes, you can legally split hairs about it. But the practical upshot is that if you're involved in an accident with a cyclist as a motorist it is extremely likely that you will be held responsible. That the actual law is more complex is obvious from the 'more or less' bit in the sentence above, it's not black and white but in the vast majority of accidents between cars and cyclists the driver of the car will be held r…

Makes sense, no? You're driving around in a 1000kg death-machine with an engine powerful enough to be countend in the order of a hundred horses. Don't you think that being extremely cautious is the least any driver should be doing?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#139

Post by Ankaios » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 6:01 AM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

Holland didn't get rid of street parking. They just became more careful about about how they placed it relative to bike lanes, sidewalks, and traffic lanes.

The issue of lines-of-sight around parked cars is a big deal, and as you said, it's critical for drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists alike. Part of the solution is to make sure that the no-parking regions near intersections are appropriately sized for the speed of the street—they need to be long enough that drivers can actually see that there are no cars that will collide during the time it takes them to pull out. (I'm disturbed by how often this isn't the case in residential neighborhoods in the south bay.) Another part of the solution could be curb extensions, to physically prevent cars from parking near the intersection and allow pedestrians to see more clearly. (And ease the ability of drivers and cyclists to see pedestrians.) There are probably other tools that would help, but those seem like they would yield a big improvement.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#140

Post by Tharkun » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 6:02 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #40

diamondo25 wrote: post #24

As a Dutch person, this is probably the cause of our parents always telling us to carefully open the door by looking first. And if you are not sure, open it a bit to see more. Also, in our license test, you'll have to learn the following rule: Getting out of the car, is just like turning the car, a special operation and you need to give everyone else priority so that your action will not cause problems. So take your…

This is far more believable than the claim that using the far hand will force you to turn 90 degrees inside the car and scan fully before getting out. It might serve as a good habit/reminder, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient to create this behavior. I think much of the US is unaware of how seriously some other countries take driver's training. Our standards are appallingly low.

Letting 16 year olds drive is probably part of the problem. In more bicycle-friendly countries, kids start drinking before they start driving. Cycling to and from parties until they're at least 18. Hell, want to go anywhere at all? Cycle.

It's a pretty effective cycling motivator.