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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#121
post #25

I was doing something similar to this over the summer when I sprained some ligaments in my left hand so it was painful to open the door using the "usual" left hand motion. The video seems to imply that reaching over your body to open the door with your right hand will naturally force your body to turn to see behind you (or to the side). This never happened in my experience, I can reach over and open the door with my…

They're already liable. That doesn't fix it, in the same way that speed limit laws don't stop speeding, and parking laws don't prevent illegal parking.

And just to be clear, this is not just in the U.S. The clause is in practically all traffic laws in all countries, because it is mandated by the Article 24 in Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.

https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road...

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#122
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In San Francisco, especially in the southern neighborhoods, they simply park in the bike lanes: pick up trucks, cleaning services vans, even ice cream carts! Park for 15, 30, 45 minutes.

That's an enforcement problem. If you did this in Amsterdam you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers.

Or rather, an almost instant traffic fine between $100 and $400.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty good list. Another major reason imo is that in an accident between a cyclist and a car the car is more or less automatically liable.

Not really. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili... : > It is a myth that is really only believed outside the Netherlands: “Because there is strict liability in the Netherlands, drivers are more cautious around cyclists, and that leads to more cycling” > There are a number of (false) assumptions that lead to such an assertion. The first being that drivers are always at fault when they are in a…

Yes, you can legally split hairs about it. But the practical upshot is that if you're involved in an accident with a cyclist as a motorist it is extremely likely that you will be held responsible.

That the actual law is more complex is obvious from the 'more or less' bit in the sentence above, it's not black and white but in the vast majority of accidents between cars and cyclists the driver of the car will be held responsible and this is one of the bigger items in keeping the number of such accidents down, Dutch motorists are quite aware of this reality.

And it makes good sense too: assuming a 'minor' accident between say a cyclist that forgot to indicate left and a motorist coming up from behind the motorist will likely do what he or she can do to avoid an accident even if technically the cyclist is at fault because the cyclist will likely suffer extensive damage to themselves and their property whereas the car will probably not suffer any damage at all and the occupant of the car is perfectly safe.

Let me translate the first bit of:

http://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aanspr...

which gives a much less hard to interpret view of the legal situation in nl.

"Aanrijding met voetganger of fietser Wie is er aansprakelijk bij een aanrijding met een voetganger of fietser

Fietsers of voetgangers worden gezien als zwakkere verkeersdeelnemers. Omdat zij kwetsbaar zijn in het verkeer, kent de wet een speciale regeling bij een aanrijding met een motorvoertuig. De automobilist is aansprakelijk voor de schade van de fietser zonder dat zijn schuld bewezen hoeft te worden. Andersom kan de automobilist de schade die hij oploopt door een fout van een fietser of voetganger, claimen bij de fietser of voetganger (of diens AVP-verzekering). Dan gelden de normale wettelijke regels. Bescherming door de wet (artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet)

Normaal gesproken moet je na een ongeluk bewijzen dat de tegenpartij aansprakelijk is. Dit geldt niet wanneer je als fietser of voetganger wordt aangereden door een motorvoertuig (auto, motor, bromfiets, snorfiets etc.). De wet bepaalt dat de bestuurder van het motorvoertuig aansprakelijk is, tenzij hij overmacht kan bewijzen. Dit is een vorm van 'risicoaansprakelijkheid'. Daarbij hoeft men geen schuld te hebben aan het ongeluk, maar is men wel aansprakelijk. Dit lijkt onrechtvaardig maar de fietser of voetganger loopt meer risico op zwaarder letsel vanwege de massa van het motorvoertuig."

"Accident with pedestrian or cyclist

Who is responsible for an accident with a pedestrian or cyclist?

Cyclists or pedestrians are seen as 'weaker' traffic participants. Because they are vulnerable in traffic, the law has a special arrangement when there is an accident with motorized traffic. The driver is responsible for the damage of the cyclist without having to prove they were in the wrong. If the cyclist or pedestrian is at fault the driver can claim his damage with them (or their insurance). In that case the normal rules and laws apply.

Protection in law (article 185 of the relevant law book)

Normally after an accident you have to prove that the other party is liable. This is not the case when as a cyclist or pedestrian you are hit by motorized traffic (car, motorbike, moped, etc). The law dictates that the driver of the motorized vehicle is liable unless he can prove 'overmacht' (a situation exceeding his/her control). This is a case of 'risk liability'. The driver does not have to be at fault for the accident but still is liable. This may seem unjust but a cyclist or pedestrian runs more risk of serious injury because of the mass of the motorvehicle"

That page has a whole pile of example situations and outcomes illustrating what the effect is on the liability of the driver for those cases.

The ANWB website (where I took these paragraphs from) is the Dutch official provider of traffic signs and many other traffic related services, they're a powerful lobby entity as well and deal with all kinds of road traffic related affairs. Originally started as a cyclist movement they included cars and are now the main go-to point for information about traffic and traffic related issues outside of the government.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#124
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

I think that's pretty unrealistic, until we get car sharing and autonomous taxis and the like to a point where there just isn't a need for street parking.

We have had subways, buses, and trolleys for 100 years or more. That's car sharing at scale.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#125
post #98
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

Why not get rid of bike lanes where you have street parking?

Where the interests of cyclists and drivers conflict, we should prioritize cycling, because it has no negative externalities, requires much cheaper infrastructure, is good for health, etc.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#126
post #5

Getting it added to the driver's license test is probably the key here.

In the US being able to drive is culturally considered a human right. I think that's part of why standards for driving exams or so risibly low compared to Europe.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#127
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience taking the lane stops people from assuming that they have space to pass except by changing lanes. Car drivers mostly take their cues from the cyclist. If you're cycling in the gutter it signals for car drivers to try to overtake you in the same lane. Why would you be in the gutter, except to yield the rest of your lane to cars? There's not space for a car and a bicycle in the same lane. A car will al…

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

> But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. [...] In a car centric society the last thing you want to do is to occupy a full lane sized for vehicles but going 1/3rd their speed.

I think this overestimates the antagonism car drivers feel towards cyclists and underestimates the danger of simply not being noticed. When I cycled, I usually found that cars would give me as much space when overtaking as the space I left to the kerb. Cycling a meter from the kerb felt much safer than cycling a foot from the kerb. It forced drivers to make a positive decision to pass me.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#128
post #5

Getting it added to the driver's license test is probably the key here.

Using your blinker is a requirement in the driver's license test, too. So is driving with your hands 10-2, coming to a complete stop at all stop signs, and driving the speed limit. I don't think adding something to a driver's test is going to change much.

Coming from Germany to the US, I'm very regularly confused and annoyed how few drivers here use signals in a meaningful way. If used at all, it's halfway through the turn.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#129
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

Getting rid of street parking hurts people with handicapped permits. In Israel, if you are eligible for a handicapped permit then you can get a street parking space in front of your apartment building reserved for your car (with signage saying that if the car parked there doesn't specifically have license plate number X then it will be towed). Telling these people to go a few blocks to an underground parking garage, even if that garage is accessible, directly hampers their mobility and independence.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#130
post #110
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

That is unrealistic and has very bad consequences on the neighborhood. I've heard urban planners (in lectures) say that when there is not a row of parked cars between a street and the sidewalk, people are much less likely to walk and spend time there. So, for example, businesses close along a street when parking is suddenly prohibited. And, as others pointed out, in most cities it is unrealistic due to how little par…

If America had a real public transport/rail system in all its major cities, this would be way less of an issue. It did at one point. America had an amazing tram network in many cities. Every city I lived in use to have trams.

Instead of upgrading trams like St. Petersburg, Melbourne and most of Europe did, America scraped trams due to lobbying efforts of car companies to switch to shitty buses.

The Netherlands have amazing train and tram networks throughout their cities. It's not uncommon to see bicycles piled up and belted to the wall in the bike section of each train.

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