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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#131

Post by Iv »

corndoge wrote: post #114
logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

I disagree. Some of my clients and contractors use specific messaging platform (mostly skype, facebook and wechat) and I do not have the power to make them change.

It is not fair to ask people concerned about privacy to pay a toll in terms of professional outreach.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#132

Post by fauigerzigerk »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #112
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are no personal freedoms that cannot be taken away if negative externalities alone are a sufficient justification. Outright bans are the strictest form of regulation. They should only be used as a last resort. We don't even ban industrial scale cruelty towards animals and now we should ban voluntary trade in personal data? That seems completely out of proportion.

Are you suggesting that externalities alone cannot ever be sufficient justification for a ban, no matter how bad the externalities are?

No, I just think the bar for banning consenting adults from entering into an agreement should be very high, because the negative externalities of doing it too often are extremely grave as well.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#133

Post by wolfgke »

ajuc wrote: post #109
0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too. Post office as well. Can phone operators sell the social graph of users to 3rd parties, then? It's so dumb...

> Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too.

Indeed. But the difference is that it is legal (and possible) to program a very open (and privacy-conscious) messaging service.

On the other hand, it is completely illegal (in the US by FCC ruling) to develop a completely free and open baseband processor and use it. It is also nearly impossible to set up an alternative cellphone network since you need licenses for using the parts of the spectrum.

This is where the difference is.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#134

Post by patrickaljord »

khabaal wrote: post #42
patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

They did not. Opt-Out is not asking for consent. And even if you Opt-Out, WhatsApp will submit your data to facebook for analytic purposes. The real problem here was quoted as "misdirection of the [whatsapp] users and the public" because WhatsApp stated that there wont be any data exchange between them and facebook, when they were accuired two years ago.

Doesn't the Whatsapp TOS says that they can update that TOS whenever and however they want? Do you have to accept that TOS before using Whatsapp for the first time? So users accepted a TOS that says Whatsapp can change their rules as they wish and now they are angry because they did just that? I totally support people who don't like these kind of TOS and use open source alternative, but people who accepted these kinds of TOS and then complain when they do what they state they would do, that I don't support.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#135

Post by mtgx »

FabHK wrote: post #130

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]: * free, * end-to-end encrypted * text and voice chat * with pictures and group chat and what have you, * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, * with desktop and web clients, * open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]), * signup with phone number or email, * based in Switzerland, * what else can you ask for? Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Sno…

Tried to use Wire recently. On both the "native" app and the web one, it takes from 2-5 seconds for my message to appear in the window.

I wanted to use it instead of Hangouts, but I can't if it's 3x slower. They need to do something about it, and they need to do it soon. This has happened since they launched the desktop client, but at first I thought I'd just give them sometime to fix the initial bugs. But it's still as slow as ever.

My guess is their HTML5 app code sucks, so if I were them I'd scrap it and start over with a higher-performance alternative.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#136

Post by olegious »

greggman wrote: post #40
smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

I'm not sure I mind FB collecting data on my when using FB directly. OTOH today I read a 10 minute article on an unrelated site about loneliness. When I got to the end of the article an in page popup appeared that said something along the lines of "Liked by 9571 people including your friend John Smith". I was extremely creeped out. What right does FB have for knowing that I read some article on an unrelated website?…

Clicking "like" on an article is a action that you take only if you want that like to be seen by your friends. It is an inherently public action, don't see anything wrong here.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#137

Post by zepto »

corndoge wrote: post #114
logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

Users have the right to demand anything they want within the free speech laws of their country.

They also have the power to impose regulation on any kind of activity not already protected by precedent or constitution, if they can use the democratic process of the courts and lawmakers to impose it.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#138

Post by reitanqild »

wolfgke wrote: post #128
sygma wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service. Here's a relevant talk [0] by Moxie Marlinspike talking about that. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk&feature=youtu.be...

> Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service. On the other hand: Do people who care about privacy very much really get along well with people who don't and force you in subtile ways to use such a messaging service? I rather think it's the completely different mindset of these two classes of people that is socially alienating and the message service is just a symptom (I believe…

I for one do.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#139

Post by anotheryou »

FabHK wrote: post #130

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]: * free, * end-to-end encrypted * text and voice chat * with pictures and group chat and what have you, * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, * with desktop and web clients, * open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]), * signup with phone number or email, * based in Switzerland, * what else can you ask for? Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Sno…

I have free choice on which messenger to use, but no choice at all on which messenger to reach my friends. And sadly I know I'd loose all the less close long distance friends if I refused to talk about private things on facebook all-together.

It was hard enough to make some people switch to telegram, but at least some of my frequent contacts arrived there. On signal I've been lonely ever since, no Idea how to make people switch again. For PGP I lost my passphrase because no one ever supported it and OTR doesn't work with my phone and nobody uses it...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#140

Post by timthorn »

rglullis wrote: post #48
yulaow wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is strongly regulated in EU, there was a strong push for it from both our legislators and normal citizens. We asked the states to be involved and not let the "free market" decide by itself. In my state one of the most important and independent role in government is the "Privacy Regulator" which has the power to check, verify and impose strong regulations on how you manage others data, and is very active.

I'm sad to inform you, this is a horrible trap you and many Europeans fall into. All of this legislation comes from lobby groups representing the big telcos, who are just desperately looking for ways to keep the OTT's away. Just a couple of weeks ago a draft bill was published indicating that OTT's must be able to comply with the same regulations as a telco, which means, among things like "ability to call emergency s…

Data protection legislation long predates OTT services. The original UK act dates from 1984, the EU act from 1995. True, there have been revisions since, but this didn't come into law to prevent Netflix from starting.
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