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Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

nytimes.com

131–140 of 229 posts

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#131
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think Liberal means? In the UK, as well as in the USA, it generally doesn't mean "the market solves everything" (You might be thinking of Libertarianism[1]). The article explicitly references redistributive economic views, quite the reverse of the market-centric view you attach to the label. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Generally, when people say "liberal" in Europe they mean "economically liberal", while people mean "socially liberal" in the US.

In the UK, "the liberals" (a.k.a The Liberal Democrats) are "social liberals" (indeed, we usually claim to be the largest Social Liberal party in Europe.)

In the rest of Europe, it does tend to break down in the way you describe. In 2009 (not sure if still the case), Denmark had a centre-right party called Venstre in government ("The Liberal Party"), and a much smaller party Radikal Venstre in opposition ("The Social Liberal Party"). This pattern (with or without the smaller one) tends to be the pattern in most of Europe I believe.

However, the article is discussing US Politics, so that is where the confusion arises.

I would like to argue that the {Liberal => Social liberal} mapping comes from JS Mill in the UK in the late 1800s, but I'm sure it originates before then.

Note also that the Lib Dems, a merger of the Liberal Party and the SDP, were not right wingers (Liberals) and left wingers (Social Democrat Party) merging, they were a historical Social Liberal party (Lib) merging with a relatively right wing spin off from Labour (SDP).

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#132
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always used 'liberal' in the socially liberal sense (I'm from the UK). Here we tend to use 'neo-liberal' to describe the laissez-faire attitude towards economics.

If so, the UK is different from mainland Europe in this regard. I do find it peculiar, though, that "neo-liberalism" is of a different form than "liberalism", and hence not really "new liberalism":P

If anything, it's very old Liberalism.

Way back when, (Whigs and Tories era), the "Liberals" we're the ones arguing for free markets as opposed to Feudalism. This is where attachment of the word "Liberal" to free market-ists originates, I think.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this comment to be borderline insulting, even when my political views are very liberal. Basically, what I read in your comment (maybe I'm misreading it) is that not having a liberal view means that the person does not understand the world, has an angry response, ignores the complexities of life and does not understand anything. So, instead of just trying to understand what do these people think, feel and fear…

"A degree just gives you knowledge in a specific area, and does not make anyone more intelligent just by having it." I've always felt the most beneficial part of higher education isn't the knowledge gained but the way you are taught to get it - Through research and critical thinking. That isn't to say that people who don't have a higher education aren't capable of these things, but as a proportion of the population I…

>>"...the most beneficial part of higher education isn't the knowledge gained but the way you are taught to get it - Through research and critical thinking."

This isn't necessarily the case with college grads of the past few years, who are more self-centered, self-absorbed and coddled. In fact, most of the 'noise' coming out of colleges today are the b*tching and moaning that someone said something that offended them. Not exactly 'research' oriented or based on 'critical thinking'. Its more aligned with the environment they've decided to surround themselves in, while those who are 'less-formally-educated' get their 'education' through elbow grease and busted knuckles (also known as 'life experience'.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the real answer is closer to "it's easy to be tolerant and broad-minded if you don't feel threatened". You're answer boils down to "because liberals are right and the others are wrong". But there isn't really such a thing as a wrong political opinion. People's political choices are based on their experience of the world. The whole premise of democracy is that if you take the mean of everybody's personal exper…

> But there isn't really such a thing as a wrong political opinion. True, but there is such a thing as being on the wrong side of history. https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thu... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/National...

...and history is always written by the more dominant force - not necessarily the morally correct one.

everyone from person to country tries to justify their actions to be morally acceptable - depending on what 'morally acceptable' passes for at the moment in time.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#135

I worked at a private University (as a conservative leaning independent) for 7 years. I found the University to be a hostile work environment for conservatives. In my case as well as others, that I met while there, it was enough to dissuade us from pursuing an advanced degree. I worked with many wonderful academics, they are people that I still count among the smartest and kindest people that I have ever met. At the…

Re the 9/11 thing, if you are someone who dislikes the killing of innocent people it seems reasonable to be horrified by the original 9/11 killings of three thousand odd people and also horrified by Bush/Cheney using that as a justification to do stuff leading to the deaths of many times as many innocent people. It seems quite reasonable to avoid condoning that.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#137
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a really cheap bridge to sell you, it's powered by a perputual motion device. You can raise the money to buy it by helping me extract the fortune of my Uncle, a former military commander in Nigeria, just reply with the details of your bank account. If you reply within seven days you get exclusive access to my fat burning natural rose petal extract pills! Don't listen to those people who claim it isn't this eas…

You're completely missing the point. The 'cost' of voting is the same no matter who you vote for and even if you chose not to vote someone will become president. So for many people they see the choice as being between someone who might fuck them over and someone who will fuck them over. I'm not a Trump supporter, but it's not that hard to see his appeal.

The 'cost' of voting isn't about paying money to vote. It's about the laws and policies that are brought in by the people in power. Taxes are a very obvious direct one, but just diverting tax money from "good stuff" to "bad stuff" is a fairly direct cost too.

Someone promising you unreasonable things is much more likely to be fucking you over. Some would say that promising you unreasonable things and then fucking you over is the basic thread of all politics, Trump is just taking it several steps further because apparently people have become unmoored from the reality of government and so cannot judge what is unrealistic anymore.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#138
post #9

Probably because the education system, in most western countries is largely subsidised by government. So the professors, and the teachers who are largely on public payroll, are bound to be less critical of government, than, say someone in the private sector. Which in turn will permeate those who they teach. It's in their best interest to then spread ideals which uphold their government funding.

Well that's...a reach. There's more to the American liberal outlook than support for government programs. I'm guessing you didn't read the article; you might want to do that first and attempt a more substantial comment later.

Yes I did read the whole article, I'm not going to write a rebuttal for each and every point it makes, just to quell your patronising remarks.

Telling me to 'make a more substantial comment later' apart from being pretty rude, doesn't actually discredit the point I made about public education being intrinsically skewed in favour of where its funding originates.

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#139
post #18

And I guess the converse question which has vexed socialists for decades - why do so many of the poor vote for centre-right, business-friendly parties? For example, why did so many working class people vote for Thatcher in UK in the 1980s? Why are they not massively in favour of Jeremy Corbyn right now? I'm not saying it's irrational. But sometimes it's odd to hear people who need the government to subsidise their mi…

I have also considered this question, my answer is that the party on the "right" will have a core mission of maintaining the power and wealth of the powerful and wealthy. This is, unsuprisingly, not a great vote winner for the masses. So around this core mission they need to build a platform, and so they pick the easiest way to attract voters to this cause up until the point when they get a majority that's able to ac…

You’re assuming poor American working class voters vote against their interests by voting conservative. Leaving aside the social issues for now and looking solely at economic ones, let’s ask the question whether that’s true to them in their own minds.

The American liberal party (Democrats) brands itself as the party that’s going to help you out. It’ll leverage redistribution (taxes) to take money from rich people and corporations and get you stuff like free healthcare, free college, unemployment insurance, etc. That should sound pretty appealing if you’re poor.

However, the American conservative party (Republicans) brands itself as the party that’s going to get out of your way. It’ll cut taxes, remove regulations, get government out of your life and basically let you determine your own path without trying to hold your hand the whole way. Sure, less free stuff than the Democrats offer, but Republicans believe there’s no such thing as a free lunch. Nothing comes without strings attached in the Republican worldview, even if in the Democrat view of course there are no strings.

These two economic angles tap into completely different mindsets.

The Democrat angle taps into two mentalities: “We need to help people out” and “Free stuff? Don’t mind if I do!” The former is the wealthier, more educated Democrats, who feel life’s been good to them and they’d like to see others benefit too. The latter are the poor Democrats, who feel life’s been unfair to them and they could use a little help.

The Republican angle taps into one mentality: “People can make it on their own salt.” If you’re a poor Republican, you just want to be able to live your life without worrying about government handouts with strings attached. The idea of free stuff is a little insulting to you – it implies you can’t make it on your own. If you’re a wealthy Republican, you feel like you got what you got fair and square, and the idea of taking what you’ve earned and giving it to someone who hasn’t earned it goes against everything this country stands for.

You can ultimately boil American conservatives and liberals down into individualists (conservatives) and collectivists (liberals). Redistribution is fine for liberals because we’re all the same anyway – if two people have differing wealth, it’s because of unfairness, and we can use redistribution to remedy that unfairness. Redistribution is anathema to conservatives; it’s insulting to the poor and it’s robbery to the rich, not to mention it upends the profit motive, which in the Republican mind spells bad things for the economy.

I suspect the right answer is somewhere between European socialism and robber baron laissez-faire capitalism, but I’ve always been a centrist myself.

I won’t go into social issues in this comment, since it’s already quite long. However, if you want a better grasp of why conservatives have the stances they do and why liberals have the stances they do, I recommend checking out Jonathan Haidt on moral foundations theory first:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt#Moral_Foundatio...

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind

Then perhaps a read-through or listen to Will and Ariel Durant’s Lessons of History (keeping an ear out in particular for the discussion of order vs. freedom, and the integral roles they play in society. American conservatives are pro-order socially and pro-freedom economically; American liberals are pro-freedom socially and pro-order economically).

Re: Why Are the Highly Educated So Liberal?

#140

Pithy answer: because you aren't going to be afraid of something when you understand that it's not something you need to fear. When you have a simple world view, nuance is always going to escape you. An educated person can understand that the world isn't simple, which will lead to a more liberal view, as liberal views tend to be based on the assumption that angry, narrow world view responses aren't a good thing. Some…

>>Examples: climate change denial, anti-vax, religion... They're the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting They aren't, you just don't understand it. Anti-vax people are often very well educated. Their position is that you can't trust the pharmaceutical corporation and the government to put health of the citizens above their profit. 99%+ of the population is in no position to make…

Thank you for the well written rebuttal and points.

Highly educated people are exposed to more ideas and theories leading them to less likely BLINDLY believe what "authority" figures say/claim and that they (the highly educated person) could be wrong due to or that not enough information is known [at this time] to make or change their own determination of what or who to believe. They are more likely to be open minded because they are cognizant of blind spots.

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