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Top developers can have a life outside coding

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Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#131

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

lr4444lr wrote: post #119
imechura wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that Sorry to disagree but I have spent my whole 15 year career as a developer at banks and many fortune 50/100 companies and I can tell you for certain that most developers in these extremely high paying corporate jobs, including the developers do rarely do any software development or practice outside of the office. Keep in mind that most of these jobs requir…

I'm curious then, on what basis are new hires considered qualified? Not the ones moving horizontally from a similar company where employment itself in the prior company would denote ability, but those who are moving up in their career or from a different tech subspecialty? If a lot of the work is proprietary, you're not expecting FOSS contributions, and algorithmic tests are out, what metric do you use? Do you just m…

This comment puzzles me.

How do you think anyone got hired 10, 20, 30+ years ago in tech? How do you think candidates are evaluated in other fields that do not have some equivalent to FOSS?

I have a friend interviewing for a high-level marketing position. They look at your resume, ask you about your past work, give you some short tests or scenarios, and make a decision based on all the feedback the collect. It's not a perfect system but it's how the world works, basically.

Also, it helps to have friend in high places. It's often a matter of who you know.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#132

Post by kd5bjo »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #111
kd5bjo wrote: post #64

A lot of comments are bringing up top athletes as a counterexample, which leads me to believe they don't understand what a high-level training regimen is actually like. I have a relatively unique persepective on this[1], so I thought I'd clarify a few things. Any sport is both mentally and physically exhausting, and it only gets more strenuous as you reach the higher levels. Nobody can keep this up all day, every day…

I'm presuming the difference is that they're kids at a tennis academy. Someone is presumably paying good money for them to be there, and by the time they become professionals, they'll have spent XX years already in training, with someone else presumably working and funding their entire stay/attendance. This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have th…

> This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have the advantages and put in extra above and beyond the other kids (and with a little bit of luck on top).

This was my point: the kids that figure out how to put in extra effort during scheduled training will rise above the rest; ones that try to train during scheduled rest periods start to fall behind because they're not getting enough rest.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#133

Post by onion2k »

badminton1 wrote: post #31
onion2k wrote: post #4

Something many businesses seem to forget is that if you want a developer to be the technical face of your business then they need to be able to write great code, but they also need to be able to chat to people at networking events, make small talk with clients, explain things in non-technical ways to investors, and so on. Employing people who have interests outside of coding really helps with that. Likewise, if you'r…

You are referring to a spokesman or entrepeneur. A good developer is not necessarily those.

Sure, that's true. You can be an awesome developer by getting deep in to the code and never talking about anything else. If that's what you do then great, but remember that your career path won't stray far away from being a developer. Often people do want to do more after they've been coding for a number of years, so it's worthwhile cultivating other interests and "soft skills".

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#134

Post by acdha »

zo1 wrote: post #113
spraak wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe racist by the dictionary definition (judging by skin color) but it holds no force against actually preventing a white male from doing anything. I as a white male can underachieve my way into anything while other genders and people of color must work much harder for the same.

>" Maybe racist by the dictionary definition " That is the only definition that matters. Everything else is subjective, relative and open to abuse by bad people from all sides. >" I as a white male can underachieve my way into anything while other genders and people of color must work much harder for the same. " Have you seen white people in poverty? They are no different than black people in poverty, and are just as…

> Have you seen white people in poverty? They are no different than black people in poverty, and are just as needing of our help.

I don't disagree that this is a huge problem but consider what it's like for someone trying to work their way out when they obviously, unavoidably don't fit in. The key point here is simply recognizing that different areas of discrimination have different impacts and they combine super-linearly.

If you're poor but white and male, once you get started on the skill ladder you'll be able to quickly adopt many of the other cultural trappings and start getting breaks, which are self-reinforcing.

In tech, say you go to a local OSS developers meetup. You're hiring and there's a bearded white guy with a messenger bag who sounds interested in ES6 — do you stop to quiz them about whether they grew up in Palo Alto or the more dismal parts of upstate NY before telling them to apply? The same process often goes down a different path if the person in question is female, latino, black, etc. and someone subconsciously wonders whether they're as qualified and that conversation doesn't happen at all if someone came to a meetup or two but felt out of place and decided not to keep attending. That kind of thing happening a couple of times early in someone's career can have a massive impact on their lifetime trajectory and because so much of it is subconscious it can happen even if everyone involved would have chosen otherwise if asked.

In much of the business world, someone from a poor white background has to watch their accent and learn to wear a suit, etc. An African-American can do the same thing but will also have to deal with being confused for lower-level staff or even the security guard, caterer, etc. Sure, someone motivated can rise above that but simply having to think about it, or spend time ensuring that you're always bringing your A game to your attire, social negotiation, etc. is a distraction from the actual business that some people are fortunate enough not to have to deal with.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#135

Post by laichzeit0 »

hawkice wrote: post #97
lgieron wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I propose the Daenerys Targaryen test. If you know who Daenerys Targaryen is, you do not have "no time." You have priorities which included "I wish to know who Daenerys Targaryen is." No judgement! I do, too! But if you know who Daenerys Targaryen is and you're dissatisfied with your career growth, you should attempt to consciously be aware of the fact that you can choose different things in the future. I don't agr…

It seems that professional programmers have little understanding about the limits of human endurance in skilled labor. Junior doctors work 100 hour weeks and 36 hour shifts so busy they often don't have time to visit the bathroom. It may slightly harm your productivity by working more (almost certainly will) but to say you can't do anything on your own time except for watching Game of Thrones is overly pessimistic.

An interesting anecdote I remember reading that Henri Poincare, one of the greatest mathemetians of all time, only worked 4 hours a day because he couldn't sustain more than that amount of time in deep concentrated work. He'd then go play cricket and read for the rest of the day. You need to find your own "sweet spot".

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#136

Post by dominotw »

Ace17 wrote: post #5

Why are we making a special case for software developers, on points we would agree on in other professions? Let's say you're making a movie, and you're hiring your music composer. Both candidates have nearly identical CVs/experience/recommandations. - Candidate 'A' says "I'm only doing this for money, I can't show you any of my work because of NDAs". - Candidate 'B' says "I spend a lot of time composing in my freetim…

>Why are we making a special case for software developers, on points we would agree on in other professions?

Because our profession mixes work and pleasure like no other. Lots of people work on pet software projects outside of work for 'fun', we go to tech meetups and hackathons for 'fun'.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#137

Post by dominotw »

98129129 wrote: post #83
andrewstuart wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it's more experience than anything. I don't buy this at all. I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have a very large amount of experience but really can't be said to be any good at their job. Experience is important in making a great programmer but experience does not make a great programmer. And equally I know great programmers who are very experienced who do themselves a great disservice b…

The field isn't rapidly evolving. It's about cramming new pointless APIs and frameworks that are pushed by $company in order to dominate some market segment.

>The field isn't rapidly evolving.

web/mobile from only 5 years ago was so different from what we have now.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#138

Post by maxxxxx »

sokoloff wrote: post #105
pjmlp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! It angries me that I always have to fight for remote work, but it is not a problem for the teams down the corridor that just outsourced the work somewhere in this universe.

IME, outsourcing works because you get (most) management onus placed on the outsourcer. Remote workers with in-office management doesn't feature that.

That is so wrong. Outsourcers require an insane amount of management. Add 12 hours of time difference to the mix and the real fun starts.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#139

Post by blahfuk »

jschwartzi wrote: post #124
andrewstuart wrote: post #63

I am a recruiter and always ask this question - "Is programming just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interest?" The thing to understand, and what the author of this post has wrong, is that I am not looking to hear about how much TIME a developer spends on programming. I am wanting to hear the STORY of their personal interest. Because the truth is that if software development is a persona…

So, is recruiting a passion for you? Did you find yourself driven to do it whatever the cost? What personal recruiting projects have you done recently that you're proud of? Do you connect your recruiting with a personal interest? What kind of recruiting do you do outside of work hours? I would implore you to re-read what you wrote but instead of making it about software engineering make it about recruiting. Then tell…

If I were hiring recruiters then I would absolutely look for this kind of passion. The point is, if you have the option to hire someone who works just for the money, or someone who has a personal interest in their work, usually you want the latter. Not all companies have that option, and not all developers fit that definition. There is room for everyone in this profession. But let's not pretend that those who practice less because they don't have a personal interest will magically end up as skilled as those who love it and put in the hours to become great.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#140

Post by lr4444lr »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #131
lr4444lr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious then, on what basis are new hires considered qualified? Not the ones moving horizontally from a similar company where employment itself in the prior company would denote ability, but those who are moving up in their career or from a different tech subspecialty? If a lot of the work is proprietary, you're not expecting FOSS contributions, and algorithmic tests are out, what metric do you use? Do you just m…

This comment puzzles me. How do you think anyone got hired 10, 20, 30+ years ago in tech? How do you think candidates are evaluated in other fields that do not have some equivalent to FOSS? I have a friend interviewing for a high-level marketing position. They look at your resume, ask you about your past work, give you some short tests or scenarios, and make a decision based on all the feedback the collect. It's not…

> How do you think anyone got hired 10, 20, 30+ years ago in tech?

I wasn't active in the profession back then; I have no idea, and that's why I asked. My question was not rhetorical.

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