Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German] • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#131

Post by 05 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

programLyrique wrote: post #86

ghshephard wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably all european nations will harmonize in the next year or two and it will be a requirement to provide government identification prior to purchasing a data SIM.

An ID is required in France (and presumably in other EU countries) to buy a SIM card and has been for some years... and yet no harmonization has taken place.

Might be technically required, but.. http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/10/free-will-sell-sim-cards-us... Where do I put my passport in this SIM vending machine? :-)

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#132

Post by rtpg » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:28 PM UTC

na85 wrote: post #91

arviewer wrote: post #39

And again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.

It's not intended to stop criminals. It's intended for surveillance and tracking of the population. Otherwise it would be a waste of time and money.

I think you might be overestimating how valuable mass surveillance is for any individual actor in the government, and perhaps the level of foresight necessary... and the amount of thought that goes into this.

" We keep on getting stuck in investigations because of SIM cards not associated to a name!"

" Well let's ban anonymous SIM cards. People should be alright handing over their name for a cell phone."

"Alrighty then, sounds good"

Things like this happen because nobody in the room mentions the drawbacks. This can mainly be a question of social status ("Why would people be afraid of the police? They help you!").

Also, some people's value systems are different...

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#133

Post by 05 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

ChrisArchitect wrote: post #127

as a tourist, first priority on the ground in a new country is to get a data connection. I had more difficulty in Germany than other EU countries visited around the same time. Despite promise of a handful of prepaid sim's available everywhere, activation was a roadblock because no local credit card. Eventually found my way to an O2 store where they used their own store address to activate for me and it was all good

There's a Wiki specifically for that purpose [1]. I had minimal problems buying Fyve (Vodafone MVNO) SIM cards two years ago, activated at the point of purchase if I remember correctly. I had to cut them to Nano SIM size myself though..

[1] http://prepaid-data-sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#134

Post by wolfgke » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #119

jobead wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his point is that when you watch anyone long enough, they become criminals. So if you watch everyone, everyone becomes a criminal.

Possibly, but that doesn't change the definition of "criminals".

It does: One is a criminal if the prosecution in a lawsuit can convince the judge that the accused is a criminal. Some evidence can only be collected in a panopticon which can make a difference in the trial.

It would only make no difference if the result of the trial would be independent of the additional evidence that a surveillance state could in principle collect. But this would mean that the surveillance state is not necessary.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#135

Post by ghshephard » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

programLyrique wrote: post #86

ghshephard wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably all european nations will harmonize in the next year or two and it will be a requirement to provide government identification prior to purchasing a data SIM.

An ID is required in France (and presumably in other EU countries) to buy a SIM card and has been for some years... and yet no harmonization has taken place.

I'd be willing to wager this will change very quickly, no later than end of 2018.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#136

Post by CaptSpify » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:39 PM UTC

fab13n wrote: post #98

arviewer wrote: post #39

And again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficul…

> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest.

Do you think someone who bought a sim-card from someone else is going to "register" that card with authorities? "Hey, I just bought this card, so you can't follow me. Where do I update my info?"

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#137

Post by Kristine1975 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #126

creshal wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gestapo used the same – and worse – methods as the Stasi did, and in the 1980s, when the general census was planned, the Stasi's exact methods weren't well-studied in the west. The 1983 census decision mainly evolved around theoretical threats (panopticon effect) and the provisions of the German constitution (basic law), which was made in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and grounded on the concept of inalienable h…

For the census (in the 80th) you are right, but today the political activists rather use comparisons with the Stasi. For example when Wolfgang Schäuble was Interior Minister activists against the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (Access Impediment Act) often used the slogan "Stasi 2.0" ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0 ). The same slogan is used by activists against Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention).

"SSchäuble" was also used when referring to him in general.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#138

Post by chongli » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #99

na85 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not intended to stop criminals. It's intended for surveillance and tracking of the population. Otherwise it would be a waste of time and money.

How is survaillance of the entire population not a waste of time and money if it's not ultimately intended to catch criminals?

It's not ultimately intended to catch criminals, it's ultimately intended to gather dirt on dissidents and rivals for sleazy purposes.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#139

Post by ghshephard » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #69

ghshephard wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably all european nations will harmonize in the next year or two and it will be a requirement to provide government identification prior to purchasing a data SIM.

Why is that presumable?

In general, Europe tries to have consistent policies regarding commercial activity, such as mobile data communications. Otherwise you run into odd arbitrage situations, or scenarios where people dodge legislation/laws in one country simply by hopping across the border, potentially putting businesses at a commercial (dis)advantage based on the country they are in, which is counter to some of the EU objectives.

If Germany begins tightening up laws (beyond just ID for SIMs) regarding data communications, but other countries don't, and you can roam your data between them - it creates an incentive for people to just ignore Germany as a supplier, and hop across the border and chose someone more flexible.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#140

Post by throwanem » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #64

creshal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.

> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?

> Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?

I know, right? You'd think slaughtering a few million people in half a decade or so was some kind of big deal, or something.