Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly • Hacker News Board

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#131

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:20 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #71

nshepperd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're basically saying that everyone should defect because everyone else does. Which may well be true for a single human driver, but is probably not how autonomous cars as a whole should be programmed. Nor does it support the claim that "speed itself is not dangerous". If everyone were driving slower, everyone would be safer (which we may actually be able to achieve once a sufficient number of law-abiding robot cars…

You're basically saying that everyone should defect because everyone else does. So, there are three speeds we need to be concerned with here: 1. Design speed -- this is the speed anticipated and planned for by the engineers who designed the road. It's visible in features like curves, merging areas and so on. 2. Operating speed -- this is the actual speed of traffic on the road once built, and typically is measured as…

You realize that "politics" only works because drivers drive like idiots and generally ignore speed limits? If they were responsible, the operating speed would always be less or equal than speed limit.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#132

Post by DrScump » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:24 AM UTC

samcheng wrote: post #47

raldi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about cyclists on 35mph (60kph) roads?

I hate seeing cyclists on the very same road in question (El Camino Real in Mountain View). There is a substantial bike 'boulevard' network of side streets made safer for bicyclists, so it's mostly ignorance that brings people to bike down El Camino. Check out the line of red dots in this accident map: http://www.mv-voice.com/news/2012/09/13/over-200-bike-relate... Considering that cyclists are expressly encouraged t…

There is a substantial bike 'boulevard' network of side streets made safer for bicyclists

NOT that is segregated from through traffic (as opposed to Bryant St, in Palo Alto, on which car through-traffic is blocked every couple of blocks.

Best route I found parallel to El Camino was Church/Latham to the Palo Alto border, then a slight jog over to the pedestrian/bike bridge behind the shopping center (was Tower Records for years, forgot what it is now). Then, work your way to Bryant.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#133

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:25 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #117

Robin_Message wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice, people can tell the design speed of a road I think there have been quite a few studies showing most people think they are above average at driving. I don't think people do this at all. I think they are overconfident, hurrying apes, with no real conception of stopping distance or kinetic energy, aiming to just miss each other with these multi-ton projectiles. It's sadly not surprising how many people ar…

It's not about some particular kind of skill-based estimate of the road's design speed. It's much simpler than that: people drive at the fastest speed at which they feel safe. If people are driving on a large separated highway with big lanes, plenty of light, and it's straight with no curves, and no traffic for miles, then they might feel safe going 80 or 100 mph if their vehicle can handle it. People on a small, nar…

> Would those signs mean much to you, or would you trust your two feet, sense of balance, and situational awareness to find the right speed? People do the same in cars.

Except people don't have speedometers, and cars do. They are there to be used.

> A small subset of people, I believe it's about 5%, follow the sign regardless. These people create traffic problems since they move at a different speed than the rest of traffic. I read a good article about how traffic planners are re-evaluating the idea that slow speed limits are a good thing or beneficial for safety. (...) The takeaway from the research was that if traffic planners want people to drive more slowly, then they need to create smaller, narrower roads.

Society is fixed, biology (or in this case: external conditions) is mutable. It's a sad but I guess unavoidable outcome - since people under given conditions behave predictably like morons, it makes no sense to ask them to be responsible, so let's redesign the roads instead.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#134

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:27 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #75

TeMPOraL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If everyone followed the traffic rules instead of considering themselves smarter than traffic engineers, rules could then be adjusted to accomodate for optimal flow and safety. Alas, drivers know better and you can't optimize anything, because people will ignore the rules anyway.

If everyone followed the traffic rules instead of considering themselves smarter than traffic engineers Traffic engineers don't set speed limits. Politicians do. If politicians would stop thinking they're smarter than the engineers, the speed limits would match the design and operating speeds of the roads much more often.

Politicians don't think they're smarter than engineers. They just do what politicians do. Pandering to the public and seeking easy revenue, the latter in this case is possible only because drivers are irresponsible and can be gamed for money by lowering speed limits. Anyway, I wouldn't accuse politicians of being any saner than your average driver when on the road.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#135

Post by thrownaway2424 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:27 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #129

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a speed gradient across the lanes is for limited-access divided highways only. Left lane / right lane == fast lane / slow lane is not applicable to ordinary streets.

Why would you think that? "(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section." http://www.leginfo…

That section has numerous exceptions, as does the referenced "subdivision (a)." The point is there are many valid reasons why someone would come to a dead stop in the left lane of a multilane 2-way road.

On a limited-access divided highway there are far fewer reasons, limited only to emergencies, and the left lane can be legitimately considered to be the fast lane.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#136

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:29 AM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #128

clort wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> angry looks I wonder how well the self driving car copes with these. In fact, I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. I guess it would handle that better than my mothers elderly neighbour who recently didn't manage to brake in time and hit the twerp, writing off her vehicle in the process. Of course, it was cou…

I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. You really think Google can't afford a Death Ray in each car?

Death Ray or a dash cam and sensor logs. Let the insurer handle rest.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#137

Post by DrScump » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:30 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #49

cmdrfred wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite, how does sending information vast distances instantly drive a car?

Quantum entanglement doesn't really send information.

"God doesn't play dice with traffic." - Einstein

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#138

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:32 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #126

clort wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incitement to riot is no excuse for rioting, surely? Holding up a line of cars that would otherwise be driving too fast is not going to be the cause of an accident. The cause of the accident would be the driver who was driving too fast!

The point of traffic is to run an economy, not to parade at a precise speed for the amusement of deontologically obsessed nannies. If a line of traffic wants to go at speed+5, then the proper speed of traffic is speed+5, and going speed-5 is causing economic harm.

You need to balance it against the amount of disutility from deaths caused by the line going at speed+5 on a road where they were supposed to be going at speed. You need to also add the disutility generated by that line fucking up traffic flow in the nearby area.

Seriously, this stuff is to be determined from top down, not from perspective of individual self-interested drivers with zero context, little responsiblity and no interest of ensuring optimum flow.

Also, the general culture of aggression and disregard for law is something that is not healthy for neither society, nor economy.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#139

Post by reticulated » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:38 AM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #48

jws wrote: post #17

The Google cars are licensed as Neighborhood Electric Vehicles. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicl... This means they are legally limited to 25mph and legally allowed to drive on roadways with speed limits up to 45mph. NEVs let you have very light weight, inexpensive vehicles with exceptional economy… that would be instant death traps in a high speed collision. They don't undergo ordinary cr…

It's no more dangerous than driving a motorbike. People do that all the time without worrying about the risk.

That's true, but consider the amount of extra protection a rider wears in order to mitigate risk of injury.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#140

Post by ThePhysicist » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:38 AM UTC

declan wrote: post #50

finnn wrote: post #10

They didn't link to either of their sources, so I went and found them: Mountain View Police Department blog post: http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-minds... Google Self-Driving Car Project Google+ post: https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf

Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of…

I think if the vehicle is only able to drive 25 mph it is not allowed to drive on the freeway, otherwise one would need to allow tractors by the same argument.

In most European countries there is a minimum speed requirement when driving on thr motorway (usually between 60 - 80 km/h), and sometimes there are even lane-specific speed limits (e.g. left lane requires at least 110 km/h). All that is only relevant if the traffic actually allows you to go that fast of course.