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The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

nytimes.com

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Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#131

Post by XorNot »

Frondo wrote: post #96
mikeash wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means you can stop wasting money on buying necessities constantly in small quantities, not pay massive interest on credit cards or payday loans because your needs a sudden repair, etc. Will this solve the problem? Surely not for everybody. But a big problem (even if far from the only problem) with getting out of poverty is that it's a trap because it's so expensive to be poor.

Except it doesn't mean that. It means that when you have $300 in the bank instead of buying a cheap TV set, and suddenly your car needs $500 in repairs, you're still going to a payday loan place, except you're on the hook for $200 instead of $500. Still paying the fees, still stuck in the let's-rip-off-the-poor cycle, except you also don't have a tv set. I know, I know, now you'll say "well you're poor, what do you n…

It's 'poor people have refrigerators' in another guise. It is apparently a laudable goal to decay our social infrastructure till large parts of our cities will resemble African poverty.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#132

Post by XorNot »

icebraining wrote: post #117
rictic wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealthy will, in effect, receive nothing, as their taxes will increase more than they will receive from UBI. Two of the strongest arguments for UBI are: 1) we waste a lot of money administering welfare services. UBI is designed to be inexpensive to administer, which directs more money to the poor. 2) research is beginning to suggest that direct cash transfers have better long term impact per dollar spent than jus…

The wealthy will, in effect, receive nothing, as their taxes will increase more than they will receive from UBI. Yes, but what about the working/low-middle class who currently mostly doesn't pay for nor receive welfare? That's money that could be allocated for the actual poor.

The point is that you spend more money trying to do this, and help less people, then just not worrying about it. Attempts at identifying the truly needy end up mostly excluding them and making the aid less helpful overall.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#133

Post by XorNot »

delinka wrote: post #129
socialist_coder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, so it's a conspiracy and all the poor people are in on it!

I never said all of them; I said "welfare professionals" for which I don't have a count. If you want a count from my anecdote, let's say 15. I can't even guess a percentage because I didn't sit at the welfare office all day observing and counting people, nor following them around to observe their public lives and behavior. I'm sharing my own anecdote so you can see how it might be impossible to find actual data on th…

This entire rant is just that: a rant. You have no idea if anything you're talking about is real. It's all anecdote and suspicion at others.

Someone who is creative and fastidious about saving, reusing and recycling would, to your eyes, look like a welfare fraud because they might superficially seem better off then you think they should.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#134

Post by jazzyk »

XorNot wrote: post #133
delinka wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said all of them; I said "welfare professionals" for which I don't have a count. If you want a count from my anecdote, let's say 15. I can't even guess a percentage because I didn't sit at the welfare office all day observing and counting people, nor following them around to observe their public lives and behavior. I'm sharing my own anecdote so you can see how it might be impossible to find actual data on th…

This entire rant is just that: a rant. You have no idea if anything you're talking about is real. It's all anecdote and suspicion at others. Someone who is creative and fastidious about saving, reusing and recycling would, to your eyes, look like a welfare fraud because they might superficially seem better off then you think they should.

How is it a rant? He has first-hand, eye-witness experience.

There are enough anecdotes (I could supply a few) to suspect there is a welfare abuse problem - we just don't know the extent of it, as numbers are hard to come by (for reasons explained by the poster you criticize).

Stating the fact that _some_ people take advantage of the system does not make one a heartless bastard.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#135

Post by jazzyk »

Frondo wrote: post #96
mikeash wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means you can stop wasting money on buying necessities constantly in small quantities, not pay massive interest on credit cards or payday loans because your needs a sudden repair, etc. Will this solve the problem? Surely not for everybody. But a big problem (even if far from the only problem) with getting out of poverty is that it's a trap because it's so expensive to be poor.

Except it doesn't mean that. It means that when you have $300 in the bank instead of buying a cheap TV set, and suddenly your car needs $500 in repairs, you're still going to a payday loan place, except you're on the hook for $200 instead of $500. Still paying the fees, still stuck in the let's-rip-off-the-poor cycle, except you also don't have a tv set. I know, I know, now you'll say "well you're poor, what do you n…

Except that sitting all day watching TV is CERTAIN to keep them on welfare for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps buying them books instead would work better? Community colleges are very inexpensive, there are state grants available to the poor. Why not create incentives to learn a skill/trade, perhaps a degree?

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#136

Post by bko »

rdtsc wrote: post #120
bko wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that when rich people vote against their self interest and vote to raise taxes, that's considered noble. But when poor people vote against their self interest and vote for the government to take less money from people other than them, they're being manipulated?

I don't know, I haven't thought about their motivation and interest yet too much. But talking to a few of them in the past (one was worth probably $100m+) I undestand they want to pay more taxes to maintain infrastructure and and not push the poor too much over the edge. Prisons are already full, crime is high, inequality is high, enough kids are already starving. So it seem the more forward thinking of the wealthy c…

Maybe they are being manipulated but I just think its a little classist to second guess the beliefs of those in lower socio-economic classes. Just as you may rightfully reject the idea that the poor are poor because they're stupid, I equally reject the idea that the poor vote against their self interest because they're stupid or easily manipulated.

The alternative to believing that you are pre-wealthy is believing that you are stuck in your current socio-economic class and don't really need to strive for anything. Working towards a goal is a benefit in it of itself. Explains why those that are handed everything in life are often unhappy.

The ironic thing is people angered by inequality and also angered by the belief that social mobility is even possible.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#137

Post by dalke »

delinka wrote: post #129
socialist_coder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, so it's a conspiracy and all the poor people are in on it!

I never said all of them; I said "welfare professionals" for which I don't have a count. If you want a count from my anecdote, let's say 15. I can't even guess a percentage because I didn't sit at the welfare office all day observing and counting people, nor following them around to observe their public lives and behavior. I'm sharing my own anecdote so you can see how it might be impossible to find actual data on th…

So it's the same level of anecdotal evidence as all of those suspected in-person voter fraud cases, which justified the introduction of voter ID laws?

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#138

Post by rdtsc »

bko wrote: post #136
rdtsc wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I haven't thought about their motivation and interest yet too much. But talking to a few of them in the past (one was worth probably $100m+) I undestand they want to pay more taxes to maintain infrastructure and and not push the poor too much over the edge. Prisons are already full, crime is high, inequality is high, enough kids are already starving. So it seem the more forward thinking of the wealthy c…

Maybe they are being manipulated but I just think its a little classist to second guess the beliefs of those in lower socio-economic classes. Just as you may rightfully reject the idea that the poor are poor because they're stupid, I equally reject the idea that the poor vote against their self interest because they're stupid or easily manipulated. The alternative to believing that you are pre-wealthy is believing th…

> I just think its a little classist to second guess the beliefs of those in lower socio-economic classes

I am second-guessing based on their actions not just beliefs. After talking to wealthy acquintances and poor ones, I can see why the wealthy might not mind paying more taxes longer term. After talking to more poor acquintances and how they justify how and why they vote, I don't a good rational explanation often.

> Working towards a goal is a benefit in it of itself.

That's a good point. I believe in that as well. I just think it is better if goals are realistic and it is important to understand how the world works and how power is distributed, should they want to make any change or affect or change it, they'd be able to.

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#139

Post by jazzyk »

giardini wrote: post #77
xacaxulu wrote: post #13

I was born into a single parent family in a trailer park. I worked my way out of that situation including serving in the US Marines in order to pay for college. Even coming from a background that should have led my family to use welfare (mom was too proud and cleaned houses instead) I tend to lean more towards the idea that welfare and the nanny state in general hurt more than they help. The CATO Institute does a lot…

My understanding is that the CATO Institute is paid for largely by the right-winger Charles Koch (a former member of the John Birch Society) and is an organization that shills right-wing thought. The CATO institute isn't an "independent think tank" - it's been set up to promote a right-wing agenda. Paul Krugman histories the development of an entire network of such entities by wealthy arch-conservatives and small-bus…

The fact that you don't like Cato does not mean you need to put quotes around . I don't particularly care for any think-tanks - I prefer to think for myself - but Cato is respected enough to be quoted by The Economist and other major magazines/newspapers (though they may or may not agree with what Cato had to say).

Also, of all people, you picked Krugman to form your opinion about "vast right-wing conspiracy"? Really?

Re: The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor

#140

Post by damagedcake »

Just because there's "no systematic evidence that cash transfer programs discourage work" doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Speaking from personal experience there is a whole branch of my family (and it's spread over 3 generations now) that lives off of gaming the welfare system (and suing people...that's how they get money...oh and one is an illegal alient). Note that I am not saying we should abolish welfare or even that the problem is widespread, but that the problem is real.
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