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Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

dev.windows.com

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Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#121

Post by [deleted] »

bohol wrote: post #58
microtonal wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. I even mentioned libc. There is more to an operating system than a kernel. In fact, this was an important part of my early computer education: when I was 12 (1994) I bought a copy of Slackware Linux because it had a free compiler (even Turb…

I think you overestimate the need for access to the OS for learning things. The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I do think the trend of iOS, Android and similar Windows environments is troubling. But if they ship Windows 10 on the RPi with something like QBasic and Visual Studio it's…

[deleted]

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#122

Post by ekianjo »

bohol wrote: post #58
microtonal wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. I even mentioned libc. There is more to an operating system than a kernel. In fact, this was an important part of my early computer education: when I was 12 (1994) I bought a copy of Slackware Linux because it had a free compiler (even Turb…

I think you overestimate the need for access to the OS for learning things. The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I do think the trend of iOS, Android and similar Windows environments is troubling. But if they ship Windows 10 on the RPi with something like QBasic and Visual Studio it's…

> The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows.

LOL on which planet did you live? The cracking and demoscene started way before MS DOS, with the C64, the Atari ST and the Amiga. Windows was super late to the game.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#123

Post by ekianjo »

bohol wrote: post #74
throwawayaway wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I think you mean commodore, or atari. Windows gaming came a long long time afterwards. It is more advanced in some ways but it does not beget OS programmers, like an open source OS does. If OS programmers die out, we're in very deep trouble.

No, while nostalgic, the Commodore and Atari scene were tiny in comparison. Since the mid nineties people have learned graphics programming and reverse engineering primarily on Windows. It's not like OS programming is going away, but it has always been mostly a university thing. And you could say we already are in big trouble. Since the ecosystem for multimedia weren't (and isn't) very good on Linux a lot of qualifie…

> No, while nostalgic, the Commodore and Atari scene were tiny in comparison

You know, when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, the wise decision is just not to answer. Both the Commodore and Atari scenes were way bigger than the PC's in the mid 80s till the early 90s. Ask any demoparty goer if you don't believe me.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#124

Post by anom9999 »

rquirk wrote: post #116
microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

I agree. This is pretty sad news. The Pi 2 page promotes Windows more than the alternatives, which seems to indicate the foundation has been completely "embraced" in the usual 3-stage process. It is another reason to not promote the RPi, and recommend other single board computers instead like those found here - https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers Sigh. I think I preferred it when Ballmer was in ch…

> Sigh. I think I preferred it when Ballmer was in charge and Microsoft seemed clueless :-/

It's funny you say that because I used to joke that Ballmer did more to aid the adoption of Linux than Shuttleworth had.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#125

Post by Mahn »

ekr wrote: post #66
microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

Now, while legally, you are perfectly right, Windows is as close as ever, it's not actually that hard to look under the hood. I work as a Windows device driver developer, and sometimes I need to reverse engineer some of the internals, and the source code from WRK is easily available on the internet : ( http://gate.upm.ro/os/LABs/Windows_OS_Internals_Curriculum_R... ). These are sources from 2005-2006 timeframe, but t…

> and the source code from WRK is easily available on the internet : (http://gate.upm.ro/os/LABs/Windows_OS_Internals_Curriculum_R...). These are sources from 2005-2006 timeframe, but they are tremendously helpful when debugging

What's the story behind this? Did Microsoft willingly open source parts of its Windows kernel?

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#126

Post by MoOmer »

bohol wrote: post #25

Somewhat surprised that there are around 20 comments and all of the seem to be from more or less a consumer perspective. The Raspberry Pi is one of the few embedded devices with aspires to be used as a desktop computer and on top of that as a way to learn computers. Embedded systems is also one of the few threats to Windows, but this hasn't really materialized yet since most devices only comes with android drivers. A…

Once you consider that the version for the Rpi2 is an 'IoT' system, and not a desktop OS, this comment becomes irrelevant.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#127

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

noselasd wrote: post #97
nkuttler wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that you apparently had bad experiences with Ubuntu, but this thread is about development tools, not installing third party games from external sources. Yes, if you want to game, windows seems like a more convenient choice, nobody disputes that.

This isn't just related to 3. party games. I've seen and helped people that hit these brick walls everywhere, whether it's installing the OS itself, a compiler, accessing a thumb drive, or whatever other task they want to accomplish. These are things that may be incredibly trivial for us that's comfortable in this environment, but a brick wall for others.

Linux OS installation used to be objectively difficult even for a reasonable computer user. That hasn't been true for more than a decade. IMO, the relative difficulty of getting the Windows vs Linux installed and nominally working inverted some years ago. Take a group of college freshmen who've never even seen Linux before and have them install both OS. Measure which of those tasks is completed first/correctly, and which takes more supervision.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#128

Post by justcommenting »

bohol wrote: post #74
throwawayaway wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I think you mean commodore, or atari. Windows gaming came a long long time afterwards. It is more advanced in some ways but it does not beget OS programmers, like an open source OS does. If OS programmers die out, we're in very deep trouble.

No, while nostalgic, the Commodore and Atari scene were tiny in comparison. Since the mid nineties people have learned graphics programming and reverse engineering primarily on Windows. It's not like OS programming is going away, but it has always been mostly a university thing. And you could say we already are in big trouble. Since the ecosystem for multimedia weren't (and isn't) very good on Linux a lot of qualifie…

It's important to grok why OS programming "has always been mostly a university thing" in contrast to, say... a business environment that wasn't monopolized by anti-competitive business practices and set back for decades as a result, or maybe a vibrant ecosystem we all grew up wanting to contribute toward and understand deeply with low barriers to entry and a supportive community.

The same could be said for understanding why "the ecosystem for multimedia weren't (and isn't) very good on Linux" and various rounds of the DRM wars.

Microsoft shouldn't be blamed forever for deficits in free software and that's not an argument I'm trying to advance, but it would also be a mistake to overlook their historical influence on when and where certain barriers to tinkering emerged or persisted.

I think that's part of why this triggers a disgust response for some commenters.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#129

Post by bohol »

throwawayaway wrote: post #83
bohol wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, while nostalgic, the Commodore and Atari scene were tiny in comparison. Since the mid nineties people have learned graphics programming and reverse engineering primarily on Windows. It's not like OS programming is going away, but it has always been mostly a university thing. And you could say we already are in big trouble. Since the ecosystem for multimedia weren't (and isn't) very good on Linux a lot of qualifie…

No? Tiny? I'd love to know which games industry you think came before the games industry on Windows. Did a legion of Windows programmers appear overnight? Audacity, Bitwig, QTractor and Ardour have made great strides - and that's merely stuff I know about. Userland software is quite beside the point I was making. Closed-source single OS dominance without an open source alternative would mean much worse trouble than t…

The state of Linux is far more a hindrances for it's success as a learning tool than Windows ever was. I've been using Linux since '98, it's great for learning systems administration or networking. It's however lacking in most of the other areas of computing, those which yourself like many other apparently are quite ignorant of. I learned far more from windows than I ever did Linux, including advanced OS concepts.

That Microsoft is coercing people to use Windows is the favorite conspiracy among Linux evangelists. The reality is that Linux isn't and never was very approachable. You might not be able to dive into the source code of Windows, but at least your not stuck trying to understand yet another build system. At least there are decent learning material so you don't need read the source code or scavenge through mailings list trying to find something other than "why do you want to do that". Or a countless other examples like it.

I like Linux, I do. But you can't have your cake and it too. It's not as good as Windows if you want to have access to all areas of computing. Which is what you want when you teach computers to a wide verity of people.

Maybe you should be more concerned that most ARM devices doesn't have working graphics acceleration for Linux desktop systems.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#130

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

watty wrote: post #60
nkuttler wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers. Maybe, but Linux just seems more convenient. I mean, can you install gcc, golang, nodejs, python, ruby, ghc, lua (...) on windows with a single command? And all the other tools you might want to use, like editors, databases? And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't h…

I completely disagree. I used Ubuntu for a year and I spent more time fixing things or trying to do things in the OS than I have in all other operating systems combined. My nephew tried to install Ubuntu on his new build and hit brick wall after brick wall trying to install the OS and Minecraft. It simply hasn't gotten easy enough and I'm afraid it's too late now. I don't see a comeback for linux. http://www.google.c…

Meh. Seems okay to me. I'm not convinced the chart really tells us anything at all. http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=linux%2C Microsoft
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