Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US • Hacker News Board

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#121

Post by truncate » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:31 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #92

bdevani wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.

> This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Legally, the "bond" you refer to is illegal according to Indian labor law.

I've heard the same. However I see many companies making employees signing bonds openly, including big ones such as Infosys, Accenture. Is there some loophole in law?

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#122

Post by infinitone » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:34 PM UTC

here_you_go wrote: post #54

selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

Why? Because a) it's profitable, and b) they can. That's all, really. Excessive money (== power == domination of your peers) corrupts everybody . We don't need any new studies to prove this. That's the sick part of our economic culture - the "natural" tendency of concentration of money/power (instead of spreading it as equally as possible).

In other words... capitalism.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#123

Post by liveoneggs » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:34 PM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

this comment is hilarious, btw

All employers resent their employees and are seeking to exploit them as much as possible for as little money as possible. Always. Every single one of them. Every second of every day.

Make no mistake- that air hockey table is a ruse to steal your money.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#124

Post by denzil_correa » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:36 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #116

denzil_correa wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but it is. You want to say that it is practiced - sure I agree but it is illegal. Bonded labor has long been abolished in India. Section 27 of the Indian Contract Act clearly says one sided contracts are void. Most contracts in these companies are one sided in nature and of the type - if you quit, then you pay X but if we fire you then we do not pay anything . The Supreme Court of India has clarified this Super…

> sure I agree but it is illegal. Bonded labor has long been abolished in India. The law doesn't seem to be doing much to protect the millions (perhaps as many as ten million) of people in bonded labour. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27486450 > India's economy is the 10th largest in the world, but millions of the country's workers are thought to be held in conditions little better than slavery. [...] > "There ar…

Here's what I meant

> sure I agree but it is illegal. Constitutionally, Bonded labor has long been abolished in India.

I am aware of the prevalence of bonded labor in India. However, it is not the law but the law enforcement which is the issue. One of your links also mentions it

> In spite of the encompassing and seemingly progressive legislative framework,

My previous reply was to a comment who was trying to suggest that a bond or a one-sided contract was legal. It is a very common misconception in India and particularly in the IT workforce. The reason I took the liberty to omit the word because I thought it would be implicit that HN users would refer to bonded labor in technology companies. After all, that is what the original submission is about.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#125

Post by manishsharan » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:38 PM UTC

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out the people behind anti-H1B VISA web pages. Not only did those people I asked for help had no assistance for me , they hounded me with hateful racist mails, phone calls and death threats.

The focus of this article and sadly HNers is to punish and prosecute the companies. Not one opinion has been offered to make the lives of H1B better. So let me offer one.

The US consulate can brief the H1B GRANTEE on his /her rights.Maybe include an DVD or training video on youtube along with a hotline or number of labour lawyers. Make the company sponsoring H1B agree to abide by labour laws of California or whichever state the the company is located in.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#126

Post by jerrytsai » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:38 PM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #118

At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem. "The guy at XYZZY will ask about h…

I had a similar experience 7 or 8 years ago, except that I was working for a small company and doing both the recruiting and the interviewing. I would screen a person by phone, and they would pass a basic screen. Then the person would come in and be completely incompetent, openly bringing a basic book in the language that he or she was expected to already know.

After this happened a couple of times I got wise to the strategy. The phone screen was useless. Someone would prompt the person with the right answer. The resume and references also useless, filled with unconfirmable or suspect information.

I gained a little appreciation for what HR professionals have to do and lost a bit of my naivete that people won't try to represent expertise to someone who actually has that expertise.

The language was SAS.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#127

Post by denzil_correa » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:40 PM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #117

denzil_correa wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company asks you to pay which you should NOT because it is illegal. The company however can hold you ransom to exit letter etc. which proves that you worked for the company. However, most people do not take that route. There are smart ways to avoid that coercion.

The agreement never uses the word bond. They like to claim that it's just compensation for training expenses.

It is a one-sided contract which is commonly referred to as "bond" amongst the Indian IT workforce.

The law clearly states that a one-sided contract (even if written as a compensation for training expenses) is illegal in India.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#128

Post by tchalla » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 2:50 PM UTC

truncate wrote: post #121

tchalla wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Legally, the "bond" you refer to is illegal according to Indian labor law.

I've heard the same. However I see many companies making employees signing bonds openly, including big ones such as Infosys, Accenture. Is there some loophole in law?

There is no legal loophole. The lawsuits in India (in majority of the cases) carry on for eternity and that's the endemic characteristic which companies exploit. That said, you yourself can try to use a legal threat as a means to turn the tides in your favor. In my personal experience, it has worked. I have made a detailed comment on the relevant laws [0].

I wouldn't prefer the legal gun option. You can show salary slips from your previous employer to show your proof of employment to your prospective employer(s) should you ever land in a bond-like situation and want to quit. Most prospective employers have no problem accepting that as a proof of employment in the previous firm. The issues arise when your "bonded" employer asks to deposit money in escrow accounts, educational certificates etc. with them. However, these are very good indicator(s) to avoid such firms. Keep in mind, that by law - it is illegal to withhold such certificates, money etc. to the vulnerability of the employee [0]. The MD of the company and the immediate manager can go to prison or have to pay fine or both for this stunt.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546534

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#129

Post by smm2000 » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 3:00 PM UTC

yen223 wrote: post #66

fadzlan wrote: post #37

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jack…

> "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

Eh, happens even to the best companies in US. Microsoft employment agreement stipulates that if you quit earlier than one year, you have to pay back all relocation expenses (visas, temporary housing, etc). Easily tens of thousands of dollars.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#130

Post by walshemj » Sun, Nov 02, 2014, 3:03 PM UTC

reduce wrote: post #90

fadzlan wrote: post #37

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jack…

"For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." No, that is not ever reasonable anywhere in any situation. May be typical, but not reasonable.

That is a form of debt slavery and violates their human rights in a number of ways