Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

India’s Downward Spiral

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 156 posts

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#121

Post by eitally »

bipin-nag wrote: post #26
bipin-nag wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean its a monarch until next election. Head of state is often elected for the term period. Also it maybe one of the cases reported, it doesn't imply voting is entirely corrupt.

Will the downvoter exercise his freedom of expression to tell me what is wrong with my comment above.

My guess is that he meant "dictatorship" rather than "monarchy". You took umbrage with his mistake rather than forgiving that and recognizing his intent, which is that the PM role in India has way too much power.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#122

Post by cubancigar11 »

general_failure wrote: post #110
cubancigar11 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until you started talking about dowry, proving once and for all (literally, for everyone who reads your comment) that you have no clue about India. There is hardly any problem related to dowry. Come, have a look. 'Dowry' exists in media which consists of third grade students turned women-right activists. For mathematically minded people, I will just quote recent supreme court judgment about the reality…

Step outside your well. The issues you talk about are very much there in every arranged marriage (which is almost 100% of all marriages in India), they just exist differently.

I am not sure what issues you are talking about. I was talking about how external type of education (western in this case), in general, and specially when conducted over generations, completely changes our moral compass and understanding, by using specific example of dowry.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#123

Post by anuraj »

India is a nanny state trying to save its gullible illiterate masses from cyber influences deemed bad in culture. It is not the cyber surveillance capabilities that is the problem (which is coarse anyway), but the condescending attitude of bureaucracy who can send people to jail without bail for a Facebook like or a retweet.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#124

Post by 3838 »

mogrim wrote: post #99
3838 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

other governments have proposed similar things - in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems because they were used very effectively by the Nazi's - record keeping in the Netherlands was very good - 75% of jews were killed, in france the people collecting data conspired to protect jews by not punching the jew slot on the punched card and only 25% were killed a belgian company sold an ID system to the rw…

> in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems What makes you think that? In the UK maybe, but certainly in Spain no one thinks twice about their ID cards. It's just something you have and use to identify yourself - both in public administration and in private transactions, for example paying money into a bank over the counter.

there are other countries apart from the uk and spain in europe

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#125

Post by _nedR »

logicchains wrote: post #12
hackuser wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings It would be interesting to hear from Indians on these issues. I'm not a citizen nor do I live there, but religious conflict often has cost many lives in India. For example, there were the 2002 religious riots in Gujarat which made Modi, now Prime Minister of the country, so controversial; 1,000-2,000 people died…

Expressing Nazi ideas is prohibited in Germany because of what following Nazi ideas can lead to, not just to avoid conflict. If you forbid peoples' expression in the name of avoiding conflict then you simply allow the ideas of the most bloodthirsty, conflict-minded group to dominate, as this group is the group most likely to get offended, and hence suppressing any ideas that offend this group necessarily leaves this…

>>Expressing Nazi ideas is prohibited in Germany because of what following Nazi ideas can lead to, not just to avoid conflict.

Yes. Expressing Nazi ideas can lead to violence, extremism, racial and religious discrimination, anti-democratic activity among other things. That's pretty much what the OP said, and is also the original motivation behind India's censorship laws. I am of the opinion that the case for censorship is more justified in India than in Germany. As the Gujarat 2002 riots and Assam 2012 riots (where Indian govt. temporarily throttled sms traffic to prevent spread of rumours) have pretty much proven - tactless media coverage or the spreading of rumours during tense situations could result in the deaths of thousands.

Of course whether those laws are being abused (in ways including the one you described) is a whole nother question.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#126

Post by _nedR »

tn13 wrote: post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

>>Despite that several of laws except the IT laws are pretty good and time tested. IT law however is horrible and puts a prohibitive cost on various IT businesses.

"Time tested." lol. Many laws in India date from the times of British Raj, and were outdated even then! -http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29516976

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#127

Post by keenerd »

tormeh wrote: post #95
keenerd wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are nowhere near US or China in mass surveillance. Just because no one else in here (or even the original article) has mentioned it: cell phone encryption is illegal in India. All GSM is done in the clear. Think about that for a second. It means any citizen with a few hundred dollars worth of hardware can rival the best abilities of the NSA.

Are you sure? I thought GSM was encrypted by definition. I know it's been used as a NATO backup communications channel. Once the signal hits the base station, though, it's usually sent unencrypted down the wire.

India uses A5/0: http://tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/gsm-india-26616.html

Blackberry threatened with suspension because of encryption: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneration/blackberry-india/5732

(I guess not all GSM is done in the clear since you can use encryption but must share your keys.)

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#128

Post by leephillips »

rayiner wrote: post #113
infinity0 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we understand it. It doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, or that we agree with it and won't criticise it. Also, I am from the East though I grew up in the West, and the attempt to deflect criticism just on the basis of "it's a different society" is disgusting, a hindrance to progress, and frankly quite racist. There is an ongoing campaign in India against the practice of dowry, I guess you also want to argue "W…

There's two different arguments here. 'leephilips said: "India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy." You said: "It doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, or that we agree with it and won't criticise it." A perfectly well-functioning democratic society can reach conclusions that are worthy of criticism. People have a habit of blaming the process for grievances they have wit…

I realize I didn't provide much to take hold of, but this is what I meant by the line that you quoted:

By "democracy" I have in mind what Americans and Western Europeans mean by democracy, which is decidedly not a simple tyranny of the majority enacted through voting. Democracy in any meaningful sense has some means of self regulation that preserves certain rights and perpetuates self-determination for future generations.

I'm not blaming the process. The U.S. still has a serviceable democracy despite the drug war and all the other examples of bad public policy that are desired by the people. Our democracy has even survived the violation of parts of the constitution that makes it possible. My point was that no democracy can exist in any meaningful sense in a society that has criminalized the discussion of ideas and the expression of opinions. Once that line has been crossed it is not a matter of undesirable public policy, but of democracy eating itself. Surely you agree that there can be no democracy if you're not allowed to talk about how people should vote.

India has become a place where you can be jailed for exposing the physical cause of a weeping statue because you've hurt the feelings of the Catholics who want to believe that it's a miracle. I don't believe democracy can exist under such conditions, but I hope things change soon for this great nation.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#129

Post by zo1 »

Nano2rad wrote: post #64
virtuabhi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of i…

UID is clearly surveillance tool. Its aim is to make the citizen's feel powerless. The scheme can be implemented with single fingerprint to prevent duplication, still iris scan is done. The privacy law is still not passed which could limit the access of UID data. It was forced on banks and petroleum marketers undemocratically.

"It was forced on banks and petroleum marketers undemocratically."

Oh, so their elected officials weren't really elected democratically? Because, you know, that's something you have to prove first before you can make assertions such as the one above.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#130

Post by rayiner »

leephillips wrote: post #128
rayiner wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two different arguments here. 'leephilips said: "India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy." You said: "It doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, or that we agree with it and won't criticise it." A perfectly well-functioning democratic society can reach conclusions that are worthy of criticism. People have a habit of blaming the process for grievances they have wit…

I realize I didn't provide much to take hold of, but this is what I meant by the line that you quoted: By "democracy" I have in mind what Americans and Western Europeans mean by democracy, which is decidedly not a simple tyranny of the majority enacted through voting. Democracy in any meaningful sense has some means of self regulation that preserves certain rights and perpetuates self-determination for future generat…

We may be arguing semantics at this point, but to me philosopher kings sitting in judgment of the popular will exemplifies less democracy, not more.
Post reply on HN