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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#121

Post by peteretep »

troebr wrote: post #68
GolfyMcG wrote: post #57

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

University rankings are full of manure if you will pardon my French. The model they use favors big general universities with a strong research department. Also how do you evaluate the learning environment? Number of flat screen tvs per student? Number of millions spent on sports facilities? Teaching: the learning environment (worth 30 per cent of the overall ranking score) Research: volume, income and reputation (wor…

Sure, but German universities are also surprisingly mediocre considering how good the Germans are at everything else.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#122

Post by smtddr »

smm2000 wrote: post #111
VLM wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job." There are more destructive forms of welfare than academic credentialism. Its an interesting idea to think about... if you can't get a job, go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job. I've checked the numbers and in terms of accounting overhead and criminal justice system overhead it is somewhat ch…

It's useless to send most criminals (especially minorities with 1/3 jail ratio) to community colleges. Majority of them could not even finish high school and still read at fifth grade level after graduation. It's a noble idea but unfortunately education is not for everyone. The only result of sending unprepared people college, will be making college less safe and destroying quality of education for kids who are prepa…

This is the kind of attitude that makes it very difficult for someone who has made a mistake in life to recover from it. Nevermind the fact that the laws & bias application of them leading to many arrests are a mess.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/w...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#123

Post by cdash »

eqdw wrote: post #112
samuli wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC Finland has never had university tuition fees and it is the 3rd most equal country in the world. http://www.goodcountry.org/country/FIN Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. My own experience is that there are people from very varying backgrounds in the Finnish u…

> Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. Thought experiment: American students also get government backed cheap loans. Further, since these government-backed cheap loans are often used to cover cost of living as well as tuition, they are a de-facto allowance from the g…

He just said there is no tuition cost in Finland so that is why it does not take place in Finland.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#124

Post by Kurtz79 »

nhaehnle wrote: post #39
jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that). However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand th…

Very low compared to what ?

I would say that is lower compared to Scandinavian countries but generally high.

From Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Soc...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#125

Post by aschreyer »

GolfyMcG wrote: post #57

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

In Germany the cutting edge research is usually done by specific research organisations that do no or only very little teaching such as the Max Planck Institutes, Helmholtz Association, Fraunhofer, etc. Of course, as a student you do not really benefit from that at the undergraduate level - those world-class researchers are usually too busy to teach and leave it to their assistants.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#126

Post by sucramb »

smm2000 wrote: post #116
pessimizer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany could have produced facebook. edit: maybe better framed as a question - why do you think that Germany could not have produced facebook?

Germany has not so far produced a single website or app that is hugely popular internationally. It does not mean it could not - it certainly have educated population to do it but the fact is it has not.

Zalando made their IPO just yesterday. $768M collected and $6.8B market cap.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#127

Post by sauere »

eqdw wrote: post #117
taejo wrote: post #37

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

> of which the two largest components are "student services" I also had to pay for student services at my (Canadian) university, for things like meal plans, supplemental health/dental/vision insurance, subsudized bus fare, etc. It cost about $300 a year, if I recall correctly. However, I was given the option of opting out. Are you not also given that option?

The fees (student union and transport subsidies) that he mentioned are mandatory. There is no opting out.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#128

Post by colordrops »

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

I'm not so sure that Facebook is the best example. It's not clear whether its existence has made a positive mark on the world or a negative one.

Also, Linux was created in another socialized state, Finland. I would argue that the impact of Linux is at least an order of magnitude more profound than Facebook.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#129

Post by toyg »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #45
watwut wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"university students especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and this seems to be true everywhere. In this case it doesn't seem fair to tax people who are poor to pay for something that is mainly of benefit to the rich." That is the argument used to introduce the fees. Once they are introduced, poor person chance to get into university gets even lower. Expens…

This is the core of my question. Is there evidence that lowering fees does increase participation in university from poorer people and does this still hold true if the fee paying can be deferred? More to the point, does it increase participation of poor people in the best universities and the best (as reflected in higher salaries) degree programmes?

> Is there evidence that lowering fees does increase participation in university from poorer people

The Italian experience is that free universities were (are) routinely oversubscribed. They opened loads of new universities in poorer areas, and still were eventually forced to introduce limits with entrance exams. The most in-demand institutions eventually reintroduced fees, although much lower than UK or US rates (we are talking 100/200 euro per month, tops). So I'd say the answer is yes.

In fact, Italy has now the opposite problem: there are too many graduates and not enough jobs, so highly-educated people (especially from poorer backgrounds, i.e. lacking long-standing social connections) are now moving abroad in very high numbers.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#130

Post by janmonschke »

smm2000 wrote: post #116
pessimizer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany could have produced facebook. edit: maybe better framed as a question - why do you think that Germany could not have produced facebook?

Germany has not so far produced a single website or app that is hugely popular internationally. It does not mean it could not - it certainly have educated population to do it but the fact is it has not.

You obviously haven't heard of SoundCloud then ;) (founders are Swedes but company is based in Berlin)
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