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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#121

Post by click170 »

ctdonath wrote: post #106
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we're getting to the point where Internet connections are more like public roads. Maybe no private entity should control these roads. Maybe it's time for a sweeping change.

The "sweeping change" is an old legal standard: "common carrier". They're contracted to move bytes from source A to customer B at "up to" X Mbps; so long as (albeit limited) bandwidth is available at any given moment, fill the pipe and shove that data thru regardless of source. Traffic shaping may be fair if the pipe is full, but not if unused bandwidth remains sparsely used based solely on source or content.

Raise your hand if you've contacted your elected representative regarding ISPs becoming Common Carriers.

(Full disclosure, I'm not an American and thus have little to no say regrading American ISPs, but I advocate for this in my home country.)

/me largely expects crickets in response.

Unfortunately I think we just aren't pissed off enough about this as a group yet, evidenced by the lack of action from us and from legislators.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#122

Post by bobcostas55 »

jpgvm wrote: post #98
maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

L3 should not have to buy anything from Verizon. The only reason they're paying them at all is that the blackmail worked in the past.

That is not how peering agreements work.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#123

Post by diminoten »

ubernostrum wrote: post #114
diminoten wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's irrelevant about "some of the major points you said are factually wrong"? It just sounds like you're okay with misrepresentation of the facts, because it agrees with your overall point. Also, like I said in the above comment, bartenders can lose their license and get fined heavily for continuing to respond to requests for drinks once a user is "saturated", so I don't think it's the best analogy possible for yo…

You wrote: Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. Then you wrote: They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. The point at hand, of course, was whether it's fair to frame things in terms of "Netflix pushing traffic to Verizon" when the reason for the traffic is requests initiated by customers on Verizon's network. Nit-picking about whe…

Netflix wrote all of the apps people are using to make requests to Netflix. It's important to note that, because that means Netflix is in complete control over the number of requests that come "from" Verizon. To say that customers are directly making the requests is factually incorrect - Netflix is making the requests, to itself, over the connections of Verizon customers.

Important distinction, because Netflix is in control the whole time, and can do things, if it wants to, to mitigate the flood of requests. It's not, and in fact is intentionally ramping up the volume of requests by offering content such as 4k resolution videos, most likely to further push this issue.

So no, again, this isn't a nit-pick, it's a central point to this conversation.

I don't really understand why you're being such a jackass about this, though.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#124

Post by dllthomas »

jpgvm wrote: post #98
maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

Netflix could address the balance by streaming back video of people watching their movies. Would that mean Netflix should pay less? Balance of traffic is just a completely crazy metric.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#125

Post by deeviant »

jpgvm wrote: post #98
maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

That's funny, I thought verizon's customers paid verizon nontrivial sums of money which happen to be many times of what netflix charges on a monthy basis to connect them to the internet, silly me.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#126

Post by mwfunk »

_nullandnull_ wrote: post #40

You can always spot a one sided blog post because the ability to leave comments is always turned off. I bet they spent more time building the inforgraphic than they did addressing the customers issue.

Oh, I don't know about that (although I agree with everyone that Verizon is in the wrong here). They could be announcing free puppies for everyone and the first three comments would be Some Dude Complaining About Obama, a paranoid schizophrenic going on about I don't know what, and somebody claiming that their aunt made $85/hour working from home.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#127

Post by rhino369 »

wdewind wrote: post #90
MrVitaliy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be devils advocate, but if I have 75mbps pipe at home and some internet server is on 1mbps, I'll still be buffering because of the server connection not mine. Right?

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network.

Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly.

But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points.

Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic through one bridge. This causes congestion on that bridge when the other 10 bridges are moving fine.

Verizon is saying, use a different bridge they are all open.

Netflix is saying, add more lanes to the one I use because I'm delivering loads to people who ordered it.

Both are valid arguments. However, one thing to consider is that Netflix could switch ISPS tomorrow and start dumping their load on a different bridge.

Realistically it's absurd that Netflix isn't use a whole variety of ISPs to manage the load themselves. Other big data providers do it. Why can't they?

But also, Verizon is probably playing hardball because they are a competitor.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#128

Post by rayiner »

cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked.

See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i... (Part I); http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/ac174/ac200/about... (Part 2). Note that this was published by Cisco 15 years ago, long before any of these disputes arose. We're talking about a very settled understanding of how the internet works that Netflix is trying to overturn to help its own bottom line.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#129

Post by deeviant »

Someone1234 wrote: post #60
cordite wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only more had that option.

That's really the key problem here. There is lack of choice in the US and Canada. Everyone loves to drum their chest about capitalism but in this case it isn't working, and ISPs have clearly colluded to divvy up the territories so they aren't directly competing. The internet has become a public utility just like electricity, water, or the roads. Businesses and private citizens depend on it day to day, and economic gr…

The US will implement the very excellent system in which you detailed right after we get single payer health insurance. Never. =/

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#130

Post by diminoten »

dllthomas wrote: post #118
diminoten wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

'[I]t's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices.' I think most people clicking "play" on Netflix devices understand that it entails Netflix sending the content to them. I think most of them probably understand that this is more data than your average webpage, too. Maybe I'm significantly overestimating the intelligence…

My point is that Netflix controls the requests, the whole time. So to say that "customers" are making these requests isn't actually true. Netflix is asking its own servers for the streaming video, which means they can control the volumes at which the data gets sent.

Netflix could ask for less data, in the form of lower quality streams, but have intentionally decided to ask for, at all times, the highest possible video quality possible. In fact, they're so intent on sending as much data as possible, that they've begun rolling out 4k quality videos of more and more of their content.

It's just important to recognize that it's not like Netflix has no control over these request volumes, because it's their software that's making the requests. They're in charge of the entire end-to-end.

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