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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#121

Post by hackuser »

x0x0 wrote: post #87
shurcooL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

it's a simple test: if data companies collect where clearly explained to the user, would the user approve or not? "By entering this store, we will permanently record your location every 60 seconds. The main purpose of said data collection is attempting to stitch your actions on the internet to store visits to more effectively sell advertising. Further, we will sell this data to many companies, most of whom we don't d…

Notice that the very many organizations that track people, from businesses to government, rarely notify those they track (in an effective manner) and sometimes go to great lengths to hide it (e.g., many stories report police departments hiding their surveillance tactics, such as with Stingray).

If the argument is that it's good for the people tracked, why hide it?

(EDIT: Deleted the first paragraph; I can't find the reference.)

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#122

Post by lbotos »

jdjb wrote: post #101
shurcooL wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

And going even further, why don't customers punish the stores that give shitty customer by no longer shopping there? Same goes for your ISP, politician, etc... We have short memories.

ISPs = Not many people have a choice. My Parents can get Verizon DSL or Comcast Cable. Not really a "competitive choice".

Politicians = It takes time. Once they are elected terms last a long time and then people often have to choose a "new evil"... They can't just say welp, I don't support you anymore that'll solve the problem.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#123

Post by Alex_MJ »

shurcooL wrote: post #38
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

Thanks for a constructive and very insightful response. This definitely seems to be a valid reason why people would be against being tracked. We don't want to be more easily manipulated (through the data that the ones doing tracking are able to acquire) and coerced into buying things we don't want/need (but the ones doing tracking want us to buy). Would it be accurate to describe it like this: the consumers' interest…

That's decently accurate. We're all doing what's in our best interest, in the role that we play in that time.

In general - I want to give people who don't know me personally (and especially people trying to sell me anything) less power to catch my attention and pull at my impulses, not more.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#125

Post by abraxasz »

shurcooL wrote: post #92
DanBC wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

These are only speculations, but here are points based on my own habits:

1) The most important criterion for me when looking for a store, is walking distance. I don't want to bike, or drive to the store. So the closest store is almost guaranteed to win my business.

2) The second most important criterion is the price. I'm still a student so I'm a bit careful with my spending. So if a store is much much cheaper, and not too much further, then I might go there when I have big errands to run.

3) I am pretty much insensitive to the layout of the store. I'm already walking 10-15 minutes to get there, so 30 seconds between milk and bread is no problem really

Anyway, my point is that in my case, the reason why the "better" store doesn't win is that I don't really care about the criterion used to define it as "better". So going back to your point, a store doesn't have anything to do to serve my interest other than being close to my apartment and lowering the prices. The rest is almost totally irrelevant to me.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#126

Post by ashah »

nitrogen wrote: post #84
jmgrosen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have discoverable mode on, sure. But typically that's specifically user-activated and only lasts for a couple of minutes.

I'm working at a place that uses a simple app running on a Raspberry Pi to update a dashboard whenever a known Bluetooth MAC comes into the building, with no need to turn on discoverability or pair with the Pi.

flawed metrics buddy, bluetooth mac address is randomized.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#127

Post by ajslater »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #109
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

Just opt in. Explicitly.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#128

Post by Tloewald »

Alex_MJ wrote: post #123
shurcooL wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for a constructive and very insightful response. This definitely seems to be a valid reason why people would be against being tracked. We don't want to be more easily manipulated (through the data that the ones doing tracking are able to acquire) and coerced into buying things we don't want/need (but the ones doing tracking want us to buy). Would it be accurate to describe it like this: the consumers' interest…

That's decently accurate. We're all doing what's in our best interest, in the role that we play in that time. In general - I want to give people who don't know me personally (and especially people trying to sell me anything) less power to catch my attention and pull at my impulses, not more.

There's a ton of evidence we aren't doing what's in our best interest at minimum a significant minority of the time. In any event, the claim of economics isn't that people act in their best interest, but that they try to maximize happiness* -- whatever that is (it's rather recursively defined -- happiness is produced by voluntary transactions, which in turn are voluntary because both parties believe that the exchange will make them happier).

* or whatever it is makes transactions pareto optimal.

Meanwhile, behavioral economists have shown humans aren't even great at pursuing happiness; perhaps they have reached their high water mark, but they're certainly not completely wrong.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#129

Post by macspoofing »

brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

>If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores.

That's terrible! Poor them!

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#130

Post by maguirre »

yuubi wrote: post #23
A_COMPUTER wrote: post #17

MAC address ranges are assigned to device manufacturers, I wonder if they'll only randomize inside the Apple device range or if they'll go outside of it. Analytics companies might start seeing people carrying their sparcstations into the grocery store.

Globally administered MAC address ranges are assigned to manufacturers. The slide said "random, "locally* administered" addresses, which aren't assigned that way. There's a bit in the first octet to distinguish them; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_address#Address_detai... .

excuse my ignorance but does that mean if one is to use a locally administered address a device is free to take whatever they please? What would be advantage of paying to the IEEE for a universally administered block?
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