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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#121

Post by snowwrestler »

arca_vorago wrote: post #96
snowwrestler wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok let's say they have some evidence that is sufficient to create reasonable suspicion, but probably insufficient to secure a conviction. Why would it be wrong for the FBI, under the supervision of a court order, to tap this person's phone to see if he is the killer? Keep in mind this is not a broad NSA dragnet here. This would be a targeted wiretap driven by probable cause and governed by the federal rules of eviden…

"under the supervision of a court order" A court order is not a warrant. This is the heart of the discussion you are trying to get into. The 4th amendment is very clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and partic…

Just replace the term "court order" with "warrant" above if it makes my point clearer.

The opinion that kicked off this sub-thread is that all wiretaps should be illegal. "All." That would also eliminate wiretaps that would be authorized under a warrant.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#122

Post by a3n »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #120
gareim wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…

I'm not saying that Brand is right, but there is reason to worry that this could happen again There is reason to worry that a great many things could happen again. An increase in the number of Zoloft prescriptions in the greater Washington, DC area is pretty far from the top of my list of concerns.

Morale in this context is not about being happy or depressed. It's more of a technical term. It's about doing your job diligently and effectively. Low morale then would be shirking, dragging your feet, not following through, etc. "Because why bother, they don't like what we do" and then doing nothing, rather than less or different.

But, point taken.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#123

Post by CogDisco »

Karunamon wrote: post #98
res0nat0r wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably shouldn't be telling cops to fuck off then?

1st amendment says otherwise.

You have the right to free speech. You don't have the right to freedom from consequence of free speech.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#124

Post by dragonwriter »

res0nat0r wrote: post #111
Karunamon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy in the bar isn't bound by law and ethics to be professional and respect the constitution. The cop is.

Writing you a ticket that he is legally entitled to do because you are being a dick is totally professional and in line with the constitution.

Differential punishment based on protected speech is not professional or in line with the Constitution.

That it may be difficult for a court to unambiguously distinguish this abuse of power from legitimate application of discretion doesn't mean that it is legitimate.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#125

Post by meowface »

dragonwriter wrote: post #19
meowface wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a purely hypothetical scenario: If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?

Your hypothetical makes no sense. If they have "probable cause" before tapping his phone, that means that the "left no evidence other than incriminating phone calls" must be false.

Depends on how you interpret "probable cause."

What if they hear this guy's name uttered by multiple mafia thugs on the street, as a top hitman? And they find the guy is friends with some mafia members? That doesn't warrant real evidence he killed anyone (random hearsay + just being friends), but it definitely creates some suspicion.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#126

Post by rhizome »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #81
ItendToDisagree wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that someone who was a 'constitutional expert', and ran on "Hope and Change" for two consecutive terms would risk nothing politically (in terms of re-election) to dismantle what is obviously an unconstitutional measure? "COME ON!" -Gob Bluth

Indeed; it wasn't until very recently that I regretted re-electing him. Then again, I can't imagine Romney would've behaved any different. God damn two-party system.

If you allow for the possibility that the military is actually in charge of determining US foreign policy, we can conclude that Romney would have done the same thing.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#127

Post by res0nat0r »

malandrew wrote: post #91
hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

The NSA has committed no crimes. "The NSA has not yet been investigated, tried or convicted of any crimes. However, it's intelligence director, James Clapper, did commit perjury, but it has yet to be investigated and he has yet to be tried and found guilty or innocent by a jury of his peers." FTFY.

Clapper has not been convicted of perjury.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#128

Post by Karunamon »

CogDisco wrote: post #123
Karunamon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1st amendment says otherwise.

You have the right to free speech. You don't have the right to freedom from consequence of free speech.

And what consequence should be merited for the words "Fuck off cop"?

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#129

Post by res0nat0r »

Karunamon wrote: post #128
CogDisco wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the right to free speech. You don't have the right to freedom from consequence of free speech.

And what consequence should be merited for the words "Fuck off cop"?

You getting treated equally shitty in return?

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#130

Post by mercurial »

angersock wrote: post #105
bostonpete wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you unknowingly were setting up a playdate for your kids with a hitman, I think you'd have a vested interest in having the guy exposed and brought to justice.

As long as he hasn't hurt me or mine, what's it matter? That same logic puts the friends of drone operators in a strange place, right? They kill civilians too.

> As long as he hasn't hurt me or mine, what's it matter?

You don't see anything wrong with cartel hitmen? The kind who lines up heads on the side of the road and torture people to death for effect?

> That same logic puts the friends of drone operators in a strange place, right? They kill civilians too.

Not quite. First off, it's much more likely that your cartel acquaintance will catch a bad case of drive-by shooting one of these days, kid or no kid. Secondly, sure, I'd feel weird knowing a drone operator, but AFAIK, they don't torture and kill civilians on purpose, it does make a moral difference.

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