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On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

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121–130 of 187 posts

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#121
post #77

Par for the course for IT/Sysadmin type jobs. "We expect you to build the hospital while running the emergency room and operating room." They are just being up front about it. There are a few areas where they glossed over it. I will translate: "You need to have a crazy-person level of attention to detail" - We will judge you based on anything you've overlooked, rather than what you've done. "A motivated self-starter…

I wrote a huge long reply to this comment, but by the time I got to the end I realized you were just making cynical, shitty comments because you're upset with them for whatever reason. 'attention to detail' - If I hire someone I want them to have a good attention to detail and not just do whatever works. It's the little things that make the difference between a good server admin and a great one. 'motivated self-start…

You're right, I'm not being charitable in my assumptions. I would edit it and trim it back a little, but I don't want to take away from your response.

To examine this more seriously:

Individually their requirements fit in the broader context of IT. However, taken as a whole the job post screams 'toxic environment', and 'setup for failure'. It's possible I'm entirely wrong, but the post throws off a lot of red flags. Such a long list of requirements and roles without one mention of decision making or authority. Not even one mention of responsibility. Most skilled IT people are comfortable meeting a high standard, but are wary of entering situations where they will be 24/7 solo on-call for variegated environments that they get no authority over.

The issue with the requirements isn't being oncall or managing projects, or travel, or attention to detail, or fexibility, or offensive environment. It's oncall AND projects AND travel AND details AND flexibility AND offensive environment WHILE cheap AND alone.

How would they fix it? How could this job post be better? Change the language to reflect more of a management position. Talk more about selecting and managing tech vendors, projects, strategies. Make it sound like they are looking for an IT Director for guidance who is not afraid to roll-up his sleeves. Right now it appears they are looking for a skilled slave to do it all.

Having been around many highly skilled IT teams, I can guarantee you that most senior IT people aren't filling multiple roles while being on-call for all of them.

EDIT: "The wifi at PAX Prime 2012 was unusable the majority of the time. How do you mitigate that?"

I'd reach out to my network and find someone who's already solved the problem of large scale wi-fi and rent them. Or contact a large wi-fi equipment provider and see if we could make an arrangement for equipment support/manpower in exchange for PAX floor space. The last thing I would do is ask the IT generalist who's been on-call for three months straight and is in the middle of updating the website. "Hey can you figure out convention wifi?"

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#122
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was standard at startups to offer company stock in exchange for small salaries for the first set of employees. If so, those employees with stock have at least some upside for the risk.

True, but it's generally something like 0.25% equity (almost always <1%). So you're working roughly the same hours for a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the overall equity.

That's assuming you actually last in the company to collect on your investment, as may happen with vested equity.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#123
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At no point does he structure his argument thus: {Khoo, Penny Arcade, anyone} is {immoral, stupid, lacking in some way} therefore they are wrong. Absent that, there is no ad hominem . What you have is a discussion of the personalities involved in the enterprise and a speculation as to their motives, methods and the means available to them. All of that is relevant in answering some questions which need to be asked of…

Actually, the post is {Khoo, Penny Arcade} are shrewd business folks that are looking for a sucker. Don't be the sucker. With lots of exposition on why this author feels they are looking for a sucker. Hell, we don't even really know what the compensation is for this position. Could be they are willing to pay upwards of 200k. Am I just missing where they are saying this will pay terribly? I saw they are not "money ori…

"Annual Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better."

Don't ignore that second sentence. If you're interpreting this section as anything other than "shit pay", you're being wildly optimistic.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#124

This is a confusing post. I understand that pain of seeing someone in an abusive relationship, like a talented programmer working at a game studio on a crappy legacy codebase because it was once touched by some personal hero of theirs. Or the killer VLSI chip designer writing shell scripts any system administrator could write because its "working at Google." But the author here isn't in the place. He is arguing that…

I didn't get that reading at all--it seemed very much a straightforward "folks, don't be starstruck: this job is a set-up." A story: I was the technical cofounder (effectively) for a coworking space once upon a time. I did everything from build websites, handle mailing lists, run cable, deploy and design enterprise-class networking infrastructure, take out the garbage, and power-route through a blocked sewer drain. I…

Perhaps surprisingly I think we agree.

Your anecdote, and the original article, have the same form. Allow me to abstract it a bit and tell me if I screw it up.

We have in one hand a "job" which has some set of properties associated with it; Hours needed to do it, responsibilities, tools, and environment in which to do it. And we have this independent variable, compensation.

Now lets take your anecdote first and change the conditions in a wild way in order to reason about it. Let's say that nothing in your anecdote changes except that instead of 'beer money' it was "$100,000 a week".

That is an extraordinary amount of money per week for someone to make would you agree? If without a "stake in the company" would you have looked back fondly on your time there? Along the lines of "it was a crazy work schedule with people who were clueless but man the money was sweet." ?

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that there is a "value" received when working somewhere. It is more complex than just "cash" it has elements of ownership, cash, people, tools, location, and mission.

I've hired consultants that their bottom line was cash per week. They had a goal of some amount of cash by some point in time and they could be sorting pennies by minting date all day long and be fine with it if it met their cash flow goal.

I've known people continue to work on stuff after the company ceased to exist because it was something they were really committed to getting done.

I have come to conclude that the value someone gets from doing a particular job is a deeply personal thing and unique and made up from a variety of factors some of which I can control and some of which I cannot. When people are reasonably self aware about what it is they value they can make good choices about what compensation they would need to work somewhere. And those values can change over time.

So back to your anecdote, when you started the job it met all your compensation needs (beer money, decompressing) after a while it didn't (no equity, no health insurance, poor predictability of pay), perhaps because once you had "decompressed" you were once again thinking about the future and the relative value of things like health insurance rose in your list. I knew a guy who fell in love with the girl of his dreams and she was constrained to living in Livermore, a 2 hr commute to the southern part of the Bay Area. You could not pay him enough to stay in his job, he changed to a job in Livermore. The values changed over time.

So let's get to where we disagree, the characterization of the Penny Arcade job as a "set up".

For me, the term 'set up' implies fraud. And yet the terms of the job are very clearly spelled out in the job listing. Given that level of clarity I have no trouble believing that they would be as forthcoming in person as well (but could be wrong there). You and I can read it, "If you want equity you need not apply" or as Chris read it "PA isn't interested in sharing any wealth with you." and in both cases forewarned is forearmed. But they already said they wouldn't and presumably people who value equity will, in fact, not apply (or at least ask if that is a possibility prior to applying)

So end of the day. I don't agree Penny Arcade is being misleading or 'setting someone up' to be exploited. While I can understand that someone whose value equation isn't met by what they are offering would consider themselves "exploited" if they were forced into that sort of labor contract. Except nobody is forcing anyone here.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#125
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's gotten to the point where any time I see someone citing a logical fallacy on the Internet, I can be 99% assured that they don't actually understand it.

I'm proud seeing my law in action :*) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6564689

Ha! I think your law is basically a logical corollary of my law + SIWOTI syndrome.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#126
post #77

Par for the course for IT/Sysadmin type jobs. "We expect you to build the hospital while running the emergency room and operating room." They are just being up front about it. There are a few areas where they glossed over it. I will translate: "You need to have a crazy-person level of attention to detail" - We will judge you based on anything you've overlooked, rather than what you've done. "A motivated self-starter…

I wrote a huge long reply to this comment, but by the time I got to the end I realized you were just making cynical, shitty comments because you're upset with them for whatever reason. 'attention to detail' - If I hire someone I want them to have a good attention to detail and not just do whatever works. It's the little things that make the difference between a good server admin and a great one. 'motivated self-start…

On-call 24/7 is normal? I thought good IT departments had rotating on-call schedules.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#127

This is a confusing post. I understand that pain of seeing someone in an abusive relationship, like a talented programmer working at a game studio on a crappy legacy codebase because it was once touched by some personal hero of theirs. Or the killer VLSI chip designer writing shell scripts any system administrator could write because its "working at Google." But the author here isn't in the place. He is arguing that…

I didn't get that reading at all--it seemed very much a straightforward "folks, don't be starstruck: this job is a set-up." A story: I was the technical cofounder (effectively) for a coworking space once upon a time. I did everything from build websites, handle mailing lists, run cable, deploy and design enterprise-class networking infrastructure, take out the garbage, and power-route through a blocked sewer drain. I…

> I don't regret the time I spent there, and I still help put out fires from time to time

What the...? Why would you do that?

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Break your leg, don't claim insurance, and have your car break down, and lose your job. Tell me about that safety net.

I guess I was right, it wasn't hyperbole, you actually believe it. At any rate: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/ I'm sure the reply will be that that isn't enough, so at least then we'll just be back to it being righteous hyperbole.

[deleted]

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Break your leg, don't claim insurance, and have your car break down, and lose your job. Tell me about that safety net.

I guess I was right, it wasn't hyperbole, you actually believe it. At any rate: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/ I'm sure the reply will be that that isn't enough, so at least then we'll just be back to it being righteous hyperbole.

Do you know any homeless or folks on SSDI in the US?

It's tricky getting SSDI when the problem is inobvious like debilitating pain from Trigeminal Neuralgia or Crohns Disease or anything behavioral, cases which - from the outside - look like you're just effort-averse. Even family and friends , it's difficult to watch someone manage their pain with pot and videogames or TV and not conclude they're they're just being deliberately useless and that you should withdraw support "for their own good".

People argue that if you can play games then you can do menial office work, but unskilled office labor pools generally don't tolerate you taking a ton of sick time because you need to spend all day curled in a ball crying, drugged to sleep for pain, or because you're pooping five times an hour. The job market is such that they can just hand your job to someone healthier, and they usually will without considering the labor law of their jurisdiction, you could challenge that but its probably a waste of time. If you can keep them, these jobs probably also don't include health coverage.

This is where the later phases of will ACA become valuable to you, but until then and otherwise (say if its opponents finally manage to kill it), if you have no money or health coverage its pretty fucking hard to get a diagnosis. For pain, if you can't pay much for a doctor you get to spend 90% of every appointment just trying to convince your doctors that you're not a junkie. For anything behavioral, that end of the care market seems to mostly either be a joke where they shrug and throw prescription samples at you or a nightmare where they try to hospitalize you.

Even with a diagnosis you are not likely to be deemed eligible. Then you get to argue your case which requires finding a litigator willing to bet you'll win and some years.

Some assistance you're just automatically not eligible for if you're attending school, with the idea that you'd instead use the financial aid systems specifically in place for that situation, not considering that maybe aren't eligible because your parents make too much, or they refuse to even file taxes so you can prove what they make, or even in the case that you're independent if past health issues affected your grade average too harshly.

Doing all of this yourself (because you have zero social support because friends and family all think you're just lazy or a druggie) with your condition is difficult to say the least.

Meanwhile you're vagrant because there's nothing in place to help you unless and until you win your case(s) for eligibility or wrongful termination, or for getting things stricken from your education record.

And that's if you're even fully educated on what your options for care are. Many people just don't know how to begin seeking free mental care, free clinics or that they could try to find a lawyer that would help them seek SSDI, some are homeless and have no phones internet or mail, some of them are single parents doing everything they can just to continue to have jobs, others have behavioral problems and wrongly perceive that these options will fail so can't generate the will to try them.

Sure, the US has nets, but they're not so big that you don't have to aim for them as you're falling.

I guess there's a logical position that you could hold that the people in those situations don't matter: if they can't even help themselves why should we help them, if it's impossible to distinguish them from lazy people then we shouldn't help them lest we increase opportunity for fraud, but I reserve the completely subjective opinion that such a position is terrible and irresponsible.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get that reading at all--it seemed very much a straightforward "folks, don't be starstruck: this job is a set-up." A story: I was the technical cofounder (effectively) for a coworking space once upon a time. I did everything from build websites, handle mailing lists, run cable, deploy and design enterprise-class networking infrastructure, take out the garbage, and power-route through a blocked sewer drain. I…

Perhaps surprisingly I think we agree. Your anecdote, and the original article, have the same form. Allow me to abstract it a bit and tell me if I screw it up. We have in one hand a "job" which has some set of properties associated with it; Hours needed to do it, responsibilities, tools, and environment in which to do it. And we have this independent variable, compensation. Now lets take your anecdote first and chang…

The problem is that a lot of the folks that might apply for that job are going to have their value calculations screwed up by "I got to work with the Penny Arcade guys!".

And in the long run, that probably wouldn't matter as much as getting paid properly--especially once the glamor wears off.

The point the author makes is that they are doing well enough that they could actually be paying better than market rates, and could have put up a job posting that would've avoided all this.

I agree with your summary, but again the problem is that it is very, very easy to trick people into doing things not in their self interest--and if not trick outright, to allow them to convince themselves something is a better deal than it is.

And we can all claim "Hey, they knew the terms when they signed up", but that doesn't excuse their being taken advantage of by people who don't have to do so.

People are dumb and don't always do smart things, and only sometimes does experience give them the perspective to admit that they were dumb--it's not unreasonable for the rest of us to try and warn them.

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