Rambling On [PHP] Internals • Hacker News Board

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#121

Post by buster » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 10:13 AM UTC

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #48

The author is complaining about lack of vision, leadership and regulations. And most of us can perfectly understand that, except: those are exactly the things that set PHP apart from most other major open source projects. It is by far the most anarchic and disorganized major OSS project and yet it still thrives . It still moves forward, it still gets better. Yes, it's design foundations as a language are not particul…

I suppose forking PHP is as realistic as forking Perl :)

Also i can imagine two major reasons PHP is not forked:

1) You have a small committed developerbase which is too much invested in the ecosystem (Zend and others).

2) Every other user (aka webdeveloper and PHP developers that want a major change) in the ecosystem may rather move on to another language then try to fork it. In the end: What what you do with a PHP fork that doesn't move in the direction of Ruby, Python and Co.?

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#122

Post by jafaku » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 10:17 AM UTC

pavs wrote: post #94

I recently started learning PHP as my first programming language and I love it so far. But the amount of negativity and hatred I see towards PHP on the internet (even among so-called PHP lovers) makes me question my decision of learning PHP. My main purpose for learning PHP is for web-development. I have looked into java code and I felt like I am going to shit pants if I have to learn that. 2 questions. - Am I wastin…

PHP is fantastic, it's definitely the best web platform if you want to actually get things done.

Having said that, learning a language's syntax is not the same as learning programming (or web development). If you are serious about what you are doing, learn OOP theory, design patterns, the internals of the web (TCP/IP, the HTTP protocol, etc.), security, and a bit of cryptography can't hurt.

So you can use PHP while learning all those things, and you will be golden. Ignore all the FUD and hate around it, eg: "php is insecure", "php websites are a mess", "php is for noobs", "php is slow". Using a different language won't fix any of that, learning how to program will.

And if you ever decide to switch to a different language within the same paradigm (procedural / OOP / semi functional, eg: ruby/python/javascript/java), it won't take longer than a few days, because you already know how to program, so you only have to learn the syntax.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#123

Post by dreamfactory » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:07 AM UTC

pavs wrote: post #94

I recently started learning PHP as my first programming language and I love it so far. But the amount of negativity and hatred I see towards PHP on the internet (even among so-called PHP lovers) makes me question my decision of learning PHP. My main purpose for learning PHP is for web-development. I have looked into java code and I felt like I am going to shit pants if I have to learn that. 2 questions. - Am I wastin…

If I was starting today, I'd probably go with javascript coupled with node.js and a client-side framework like angular (and possibly ruby+rails), but php+symfony/laravel wouldn't be a bad way to go and should give good job security for the foreseeable.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#124

Post by SPSteinbeck » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:08 AM UTC

gesman wrote: post #14

PHP is addictive. You can create whole web app in one PHP file from scratch and it will have everything including API and DB management layer and be secure and fully functioning. And it will work on all servers and on all operating systems. Millions are made by average developers developing themes and plugins for wordpress. Hard to beat all that. #drama is for queens :)

You sir, are an idiot.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#125

Post by SPSteinbeck » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:12 AM UTC

Miyamoto wrote: post #71

HN white knights JavaScript but hates PHP. I can't figure it out. Each language is horrible in similar ways.

No.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#126

Post by progx » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:19 AM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #31

He complains about how internals lacks leadership, so why doesn't step up and fill that void instead of running away?

It is not possible to change people, that dont want to be changed.

As long as they not see, that there is something wrong, they will be against any change.

This is absolutely normal, this ist humanly.

He did the only right thing, he change himself and leave them. He want a change.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#127

Post by pearjuice » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:20 AM UTC

dkhenry wrote: post #4

I think the only hope PHP has of continuing development is if someone big like Facebook can add some direction to it. Maybe they will but I think last I checked even they were giving up on using it for much more then a thin veneer to their back end services.

I read the entire sub-tree under this comment and still cannot figure out what exactly Facebook is written in. Is this because nobody at Facebook actually knows what the entire stack looks like or because they keep it a secret?

With their "Move fast, break things" motto I can only shudder at the imagination of the scenarios happening at Facebook HQ:

"Hey, so you are the new developer in town? Can you build service X which service Y and Z can use? Just write a proper API, we need this ASAP."

- "So what do I write this service in? Any framework already build to support these operations?"

"Pick your poison! Check our internal repository collection and see if you can re-use anything useful. As long as we can communicate with it via the API!"

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#128

Post by gexla » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:34 AM UTC

I think what's important here is that PHP developers shouldn't look past the curtain. The whole web stack is a house of cards. The state of PHP doesn't change that. ;)

PHP is powering a huge industry. A lot of money is flowing on PHP code, from PHP developers banging out code for paying clients to companies like Facebook which got started as PHP apps. Wordpress powers a ridiculous number of companies which run on its code.

PHP may be a mess, but lets keep things in perspective. The state of what really matters is alive and well.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#129

Post by progx » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 11:48 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #102

pavs wrote: post #94

I recently started learning PHP as my first programming language and I love it so far. But the amount of negativity and hatred I see towards PHP on the internet (even among so-called PHP lovers) makes me question my decision of learning PHP. My main purpose for learning PHP is for web-development. I have looked into java code and I felt like I am going to shit pants if I have to learn that. 2 questions. - Am I wastin…

Whether or not you stick with PHP, you should learn some other languages. At the very least, it will make you a much better PHP programmer. But maybe you'll find something you like better. Ruby, Python, and Node are all reasonable next things to try. Large communities, lots of resources, and plenty of example code to look at.

I leave PHP last year. The way PHP moves is not my way anymore. After so many years of using, it get boring too.

PHP has a problem, the "old stuff" / compatibility, like all older projects have. They change things, but slowly and sometimes inconseqent. I hope the will really renew everything with a new version, even if that mean that they lose many users.

In the last years so many new languages and styles were born, you feel really old with PHP ;-) ... that does not mean that the others were better.

Re: Rambling On [PHP] Internals

#130

Post by UweSchmidt » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 12:41 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #94

I recently started learning PHP as my first programming language and I love it so far. But the amount of negativity and hatred I see towards PHP on the internet (even among so-called PHP lovers) makes me question my decision of learning PHP. My main purpose for learning PHP is for web-development. I have looked into java code and I felt like I am going to shit pants if I have to learn that. 2 questions. - Am I wastin…

Most of the criticism you hear isn't very relevant for a beginner who's learning, and most people having those discussions have forgotten what it is like to be a beginner a long time ago.

If you like the "accessibility" of PHP, if you like programming in it, if you like the learning resources you have and you like the forums you've found, then go for it.

In due time you'll discover what the criticism about PHP was all about, form your own opinion and might check out other options (and Java won't be scary any more - just different syntax and a few concepts that you'll appreciate better when you have some experience).