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Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

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Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#121

Post by scythe »

bob13579 wrote: post #109
scythe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Other smaller car manufacturers are having to go through dealerships, even with zero pre-existing relationships. Why should Tesla, which has a market cap that far exceeds those aforementioned manufacturers, get special rules? I don't believe you. Show me some evidence that they have to, and that they're not merely choosing to.

They have to. Franchise laws. Look it up. Here is MA's: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXV/...

Nope, turns out you're reading it wrong.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXV/Cha...

Subsection (6):

>[It shall be a violation...] to offer to sell or to sell any new motor vehicle to any person located in the commonwealth, except a distributor, at a lower actual price therefor than the actual price offered and charged contemporaneously to a motor vehicle dealer located in the commonwealth for the same model vehicle similarly equipped or to utilize any device which results in such lesser actual price unless the same is available on equal terms to all dealers located in the commonwealth; but this paragraph shall not apply to sales by a manufacturer or distributor to any unit of the federal government or any agency thereof or to the commonwealth or any of its political subdivisions.

As written, this clearly applies if and only if Tesla already sells cars to dealers, and furthermore similarly to other independent car manufacturers, electric and otherwise.

Is it a bad law? Yes. Does it hurt the incumbents? Yes. Is it biased in Tesla's favor? No. Is it giving Tesla special treatment? No.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#122

Post by scythe »

bob13579 wrote: post #113
scythe wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should perhaps note that that isn't a subsidy to Tesla: it applies to every electric car manufacturer. It's not relevant to the question, which is, "did Tesla succeed "unfairly" w.r.t. other makers?". It's also a red herring for your previous argument about inequality: "Both the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle and the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, launched in December 2010, are eligible for the maximum $7,500 tax cre…

This is just funny. Which car manufacturers on that $7,500 federal tax subsidy electric car list get $500M loans to build out their electric cars?

Does it actually matter? Here the one thing, there the other.

You're complaining about "government picking winners and losers with taxpayer money". The loan isn't a waste of taxpayer money. The subsidy isn't picking winners and losers. Taken together, these two things do not provide weight to your claim: Tesla is not a messiah of the government on the wings of the taxpayers. Or, at least, you have failed to demonstrate that.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#123

Post by samolang »

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10
mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

No, but Fisker got $529 million, Ford got $5.9 BILLION, and Nissan got $1.4 BILLION.

https://lpo.energy.gov/our-projects/

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#124

Post by samolang »

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10
mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

That's like asking how is that poor, first generation Harvard student playing fair? Did all Harvard students get a scholarship? No, but a lot of the other kids had parents that went there so they got a leg up in the admission process and their parents are rich enough to pay for it.

I find it difficult blaming Tesla for doing what it can to catch up in an industry where the established players have a huge advantage.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#125

Post by jokoon »

bob13579 wrote: post #118
coldpie wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also subsidizing cheap gas to the tune of $1 billion per day in Iraq and other Middle East engagements. Economies are very complicated, there's pros and cons for every action and inaction.

Can you give me an actual link that explains what you're specifically talking about?

Well let's look at the oil and food subsidies, and compare them with the electric cars ones. I can take a wild guess and say they are on different order of magnitudes. I wonder if I'm wrong.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#126

Post by RHSeeger »

bob13579 wrote: post #98
kybernetyk wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is that fair? Life's not fair. Better you get used to it and take every advantage you can get. It's not like it was free money anyway. It still was a loan and had to be paid back. You're acting like the US government would have gifted that money to Tesla.

How do you explain the $7,500 subsidy for each Tesla sold? Also, the government would have gifted them the money regardless of their ability to pay it back. Fisker couldn't pay back theirs, as did many other energy companies that went bankrupt. No one was arrested and no personal assets were taken.

The same way I explain the $7,500 subsidy for each ANY all electric car sold; as the government trying to promote alternatives to ICE because (in theory) it's good for the planet and economy.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#127

Post by codex »

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10
mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

Well, Nissan took a ~$15B loan from the DoE to build an electric vehicle battery manufacturing facility in Tenesseee.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#128

Post by snowwrestler »

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10
mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

Every auto company in the world has received substantial assistance from their national government. In the U.S., it's ludicrous to single out Tesla for special attention less than 5 years after both GM and Chrysler received bankruptcy bridge financing from the federal government.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#129

Post by snowwrestler »

qwanzi77 wrote: post #17
ngcazz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing by the rules against incumbent manufacturers. edit: didn't Tesla repay a big federal loan a few weeks ago, many years before they had to? Good citizenship is fair.

Incumbent manufacturers have to go through dealers. Allowing Tesla to bypass dealers wouldn't be fair to other car manufacturers. "Tesla repay a big federal loan a few weeks ago, many years before they had to?" Why does this matter? They were given a large loan. That large loan gave them a large runway to have one profitable quarter, which allowed them to pay back the loan by issuing shares and bonds. Another car man…

> Incumbent manufacturers have to go through dealers. Allowing Tesla to bypass dealers wouldn't be fair to other car manufacturers.

Why? Why not just let everyone sell direct?

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