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Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

teslamotors.com

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Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#111

Post by coldpie »

bob13579 wrote: post #90
scythe wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla qualified. Their application was reviewed by a board of People Who Know Things. I know this because my aunt, a respected physicist, sat on such a board. They're not throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks; they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens. Tesla got th…

"they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens." The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? "As for dealerships, the reason Tesla doesn't have to go through them is bec…

> Other smaller car manufacturers are having to go through dealerships, even with zero pre-existing relationships. Why should Tesla, which has a market cap that far exceeds those aforementioned manufacturers, get special rules?

They shouldn't. Remove dealership requirements for all manufacturers. I think that's pretty clearly what Tesla is arguing for.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#112

Post by coldpie »

bob13579 wrote: post #82
jokoon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand what is the problem here. Sometimes the market can't do things properly, and there, tesla motor is a great example. A consumer market is not always great when you want to make new things, because both consumers AND current manufacturers will say they are happy with what they have, and won't see your initiative like a good thing. Consumers absolutely can't have a say in anything because they'…

Umm, no. Taxpayers are still subsidizing $7,500 per Tesla sold.

They're also subsidizing cheap gas to the tune of $1 billion per day in Iraq and other Middle East engagements. Economies are very complicated, there's pros and cons for every action and inaction.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#113

Post by bob13579 »

scythe wrote: post #99
bob13579 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The federal tax credit of $7,500, plus any state subsidies, for each Tesla sold doesn't ring a bell to you?

I should perhaps note that that isn't a subsidy to Tesla: it applies to every electric car manufacturer. It's not relevant to the question, which is, "did Tesla succeed "unfairly" w.r.t. other makers?". It's also a red herring for your previous argument about inequality: "Both the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle and the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, launched in December 2010, are eligible for the maximum $7,500 tax cre…

This is just funny. Which car manufacturers on that $7,500 federal tax subsidy electric car list get $500M loans to build out their electric cars?

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#114

Post by bob13579 »

coldpie wrote: post #110
bob13579 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens." The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? "As for dealerships, the reason Tesla doesn't have to go through them is bec…

> The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? Sure. Why not? I want the government to stimulate innovations in places that need it.

Who determines what needs funding? A lobby of People Who Know Things?

If you wanted to curb carbon emissions, there are many more efficient ways to do so.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#115

Post by zikzikzik »

bob13579 wrote: post #106
enraged_camel wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complicated topic where your simple notion of "fairness" doesn't quite apply. In any industry where there are powerful incumbents and extremely high startup capital costs, the startups often need to be given outside assistance (i.e. government subsidy in the form of a loan) to have a chance of competing with their innovations. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary evil. Furthermore, the incumbents had pl…

"What many of them did instead was to go bankrupt and ask for bailouts." This is quite astonishing. A few large American car companies with large pension liabilities needed the subsidies (I would have let them failed and let more efficient car manufacturers take over their assets, personally). Every other large manufacturer didn't need subsidies. "Furthermore, the incumbents had plenty of chance to innovate." The com…

> Going forward, making the combustible engine and hybrids more efficient will do magnitudes more to curb carbon emissions than all-electric vehicles.

Simply stating it as fact does not make it true.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#116

Post by bob13579 »

danesparza wrote: post #107
qwanzi77 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you should only give $500M loans to rich, well-connected, billionaires, right? Wow. There were quite several car manufacturers similar to Tesla's size before their large taxpayer-subsidized loan who didn't get those loans. I guess you must be a well-connected billionaire to qualify. I guess that counts as "fair" nowadays.

Remember the word 'loan' designates a debt instrument. It needs to be paid back. If you don't have the capital to secure the loan (and pay it back), no -- you shouldn't get the money.

Fisker and Solyndra and several others couldn't pay back their loans. The government didn't arrest any of them and didn't take any of their personal assets. The debt was simply discharged.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#117

Post by coldpie »

bob13579 wrote: post #114
coldpie wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? Sure. Why not? I want the government to stimulate innovations in places that need it.

Who determines what needs funding? A lobby of People Who Know Things? If you wanted to curb carbon emissions, there are many more efficient ways to do so.

Well, yeah. Who else? It's not dissimilar to how academic research funding works. Proposals are submitted, evaluated, and sometimes awarded funds.

As far as curbing carbon emissions goes, there are a lot of irons in that fire, both public and private. No reason to place all your eggs in one basket. There are a lot of reasons to publicly support new innovations in EVs. It's a very high-profile field, and Tesla is doing a fantastic job of showing that EVs can be fun, pleasant cars. Putting the money into academic research isn't going to generate nearly as much public interest.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#118

Post by bob13579 »

coldpie wrote: post #112
bob13579 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, no. Taxpayers are still subsidizing $7,500 per Tesla sold.

They're also subsidizing cheap gas to the tune of $1 billion per day in Iraq and other Middle East engagements. Economies are very complicated, there's pros and cons for every action and inaction.

Can you give me an actual link that explains what you're specifically talking about?

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#119

Post by Mikeb85 »

Some of the comments here amaze me. Many (most?) countries have business development banks, that give out loans to entrepreneurs... It's confusing why a loan given to a start-up car company is such a scandal.

Those who understand capitalism know that entrepreneurship is the main driving force behind economic growth, as well as innovation, job creation, and most other positives that capitalism brings...

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#120

Post by enraged_camel »

bob13579 wrote: post #106
enraged_camel wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complicated topic where your simple notion of "fairness" doesn't quite apply. In any industry where there are powerful incumbents and extremely high startup capital costs, the startups often need to be given outside assistance (i.e. government subsidy in the form of a loan) to have a chance of competing with their innovations. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary evil. Furthermore, the incumbents had pl…

"What many of them did instead was to go bankrupt and ask for bailouts." This is quite astonishing. A few large American car companies with large pension liabilities needed the subsidies (I would have let them failed and let more efficient car manufacturers take over their assets, personally). Every other large manufacturer didn't need subsidies. "Furthermore, the incumbents had plenty of chance to innovate." The com…

The combustible engine is more efficient than ever. We're getting many more miles per a gallon of gas than we ever had. The efficiency of the engine has done much, much, much more than electric vehicles to curb carbon emissions.

Yeah, but only because they are far more common.

Going forward, making the combustible engine and hybrids more efficient will do magnitudes more to curb carbon emissions than all-electric vehicles.

Only if you operate under the assumption that electric vehicle usage won't become more common.

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