Live data from Hacker News

"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

121–130 of 252 posts

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#121
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how serious you are, but I hate what you just said. It's like.. YOUR software made me frustrated, don't tell me to just wait it off. The reason I'm talking to you like this is YOUR code. And sure, when it's just raving, that may be right, but the guy genuinely TRIED and went through hoop after hoop.

He was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure you both agree to the same point.

Fist bump* then.

* - or any other commonly accepted ritual interpretable as "we cool, we cool". The cooler the better.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#123
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built s…

Thanks for the Tmux book from here too.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#124
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

No response would have been better, at least until you are in a lighter mood. That's a rule I try to follow.

I agree.

This is obviously oversimplifying, but there are two common approaches to how to respond.

The first is "You're my customer" (figuratively speaking), which means you try to be helpful in spite of the tone of the person asking for help. Sometimes empathy goes a long way -- instead of thinking "This guy's being a such dick", ask yourself "Why is this guy being such a dick?". On the other hand, if the tone is a little too belligerent, it's also important to note that some "customers" aren't worth having, and you get rid of them.

The second is "I'm doing you a favour, you should appreciate it". Usually taking this perspective starts with "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" and it rarely ends well.

I typically try to treat everyone in my dealings (employers, employees I manage, and my peers, etc.) like customers unless they force me to not to, but they always get the benefit of the doubt the first few times around.

What I typically find with people who are extremely frustrated who are looking for help is that they become extremely thankful and contrite once you've helped them, especially if you showed them a little empathy in helping them.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#125
post #91

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

Knowing Trek, I think his frustration here is in large part with himself. He cares very deeply about giving users a good experience with Ember and knows that we aren't achieving that as well as we'd like. We've been planning and working on an improved Getting Started story for a while now but, because all of us on the Core Team are very busy with our day jobs, it's been slower going that we would have liked. To have…

If he cares that deeply, I'd suggest walk instead of talk and fix the problems now instead of hand waving. The Emberjs documentation problems have been there since the beginning.

Instead of commenting on #HN how awful ungrateful sarcastic users are, write a new "Getting started" page.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#126
post #78

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

So, here's the challenge: if you're going to develop systems software (which is to say, software that is consumed by a fellow software engineer), you're going to find that you're much more likely to hear about how the software doesn't work than how it does. This is frustrating because you -- like every other human -- react much better to praise than to scorn. But here's the leap you need to make: when you have someone taking the time to criticize you in depth, it's because THEY WANT YOU TO SUCCEED. (If they didn't want you to succeed, they wouldn't bother reporting their experiences to you, because they wouldn't actually want you to fix them!)

So as hard as they can be to read sometimes, experiences like the one you replied to are actually essential to you and your project: it is someone who wants you to succeed explaining in detail how you fall short. The proper reply is to thank them for the time they took, apologize for any inconvenience -- and then try to figure out forward progress on the problem that they've identified (which in this case seems as simple as pointing Delvarworld to the nascent "Getting Started" guide). No, this isn't always easy (and you can take solace in the fact that it's hard for the rest of us too) -- but it's essential if you want to develop systems software.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#127
post #80

I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…

If you guys are interested in putting together some usable examples (in the spirit of docs.angularjs.org), I would love to help you integrate live examples with Plunker (http://plnkr.co/edit/).

Bootstrapping an editor session is as simple as POST'ing a simple form targeted at that url.

I would really love to see the Ember.js community get some use out of Plunker. (@filearts on twitter if you'd like to chat).

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#128
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built s…

Thank you for that Tmux book. I found it very helpful.

You're most welcome. I'm glad it helped.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#129
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm studying interaction design in Sweden at the moment. This is exactly the point they're drilling into our arrogant heads: you're not a genius, listen to your users. And then you actually have to convince your clients that they are not geniuses, that being an expert can also make you blind to things, and that they need to listen to their users. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_design

True story. I've seen 2 extremes in my career: 1. The "product makers" think they know everything and force the users to do it the way they want. This often results in a bad to use product. 2. The "product makers" think the user knows best and do everything the users say. This often results in a too specific/unflexible product.

I'd add to your point #2 - It can also result in a product that is way too broad and not particularly good at any one thing. i.e., the Homermobile.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built s…

Thanks for the Tmux book from here too.

Thank you as well.
Post reply on HN