Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail" • Hacker News Board

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#121

Post by silencio » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 2:32 AM UTC

sachinag wrote: post #109

tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea about the BBB. Can you tell us more?

Here's an intro article: http://yourbiz.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/13/996827.aspx But the sentiment is pretty clear: you can pay to stay in the BBB's good graces. If you're naturally OK, you should be fine, but if you're bad, you can pay to get OK.

Well, you don't necessarily have to pay. Just that your local BBB will be a lot less annoying if you do, and they'll also give you a shiny seal of approval and a better grade that doesn't mean squat.

I have no idea why so many people I know are so willing to jump to file complaints with them before some more logical ways to solve a problem...like, oh, calling up the business in question? BBB don't have any authority over businesses and their tactics are annoying on both ends. I've been burned by the BBB from both a business and a customer perspective by being ignored and told to go around in circles and do things I already attempted to do.

What was that issue I had as a customer? The alarm company I went with not providing service, which we discovered after routine monthly testing..can you say negligence? They wouldn't stop billing us and they even billed us for the equipment they gave us originally after we got a new company in to replace everything and told the old company to give us an address to at least send this back, or have someone pick it up (but they never did). The local BBB told us "tough, deal with it, talk to them" even though we filed an online complaint and the old alarm company kept hanging up on us before we could talk to anyone in charge of billing, at the least. So what happened? We sued the company and the owner and the situation ended happily for us, except if you go to the BBB and look up information on this business that still exists, there's nothing bad about it. Good job BBB, really, good job.

The business one was even more preposterous, where the BBB informed me that a customer had a complaint for something that wasn't even our problem, it was user error. She had never told anyone about it, she never called, she never visited again, she just went and filed a bullshit complaint that we went to unreasonable lengths to resolve to her satisfaction. What do we get for dealing with user stupidity? A lower grade on the BBB website? They're insane. You'd be hard pressed to find a business that doesn't hate them, especially smaller ones who don't want to pay extortionate rates for a stupid BBB "approval" when they already provide stellar customer support.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#122

Post by DenisM » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 2:37 AM UTC

webwright wrote: post #44

markh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the camp that says 37Signals have a valid point. Let's assume their intention is not about traffic but is to pressure GetSatisfaction into rectifying the situation as quickly as possible (and not just for 37Signals) then as harsh as the post may have been: 1) 37Signals have used their considerable influence to achieve change on behalf of many sites who have far less influence 2) 37Signals used the open model o…

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

- Hey - you are stealing my sutff! - Oh, you noticed? Sorry, I will stop now. I will go steal someone else's stuff then.

This is not to equate GS actions with stealing, but merely to demonstrate a fault in your reasoning.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#123

Post by GHFigs » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:21 AM UTC

webwright wrote: post #44

markh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the camp that says 37Signals have a valid point. Let's assume their intention is not about traffic but is to pressure GetSatisfaction into rectifying the situation as quickly as possible (and not just for 37Signals) then as harsh as the post may have been: 1) 37Signals have used their considerable influence to achieve change on behalf of many sites who have far less influence 2) 37Signals used the open model o…

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

"I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first"

No, that would have been extortion in the form of: "Nice place you got here. Be a shame if anything happened to it." In case you missed it, coersion is what is being railed against.

There is a world of difference between responding to public criticism and responding on threat of public criticism.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#124

Post by GHFigs » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:25 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #85

enjo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did. The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive. The 37 signals post is…

Ridiculous. As if Fried couldn't have posted the article after an interaction w/ Get Satisfaction. But then it would be a good example of quick customer service, as opposed to a hatchet job.

it would be a good example of quick customer service

37signals were not and are not customers of Get Satisfaction.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#125

Post by trapper » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:30 AM UTC

wheels wrote: post #50

mechanical_fish wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. Whereas I think a public statement of outrage is entirely justified. Take a look at the screenshot. GetSatisfaction has been collecting feedback under the 37signals name for at least a month. Those people who typed messages into GetSatisfaction expecting a response have been disappointed for a while. Anyon…

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work, but starting off by asking people to resolve something lends you credibility because you've tried to resolve things amicably. If you want to put a squeeze on them, you can add, "Or we're going to lambaste you in our popular blog." But starting off that way is just obnoxious. Granted, as noted, being obnoxious drives page views…

Remember getsatisfaction provides a public front for YOUR company. Why shouldn't they discuss it in the public. They are discussing YOUR business in public, without your permission, and trying to come off as legit.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#126

Post by tomsaffell » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 4:58 AM UTC

tomsaffell wrote: post #98

mechanical_fish wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work. You still haven't grasped the problem. I'm sure that 37signals could easily have used quiet channels to remove the offending pages, messages, and marketing copy on GetSatisfaction. But that would not have reached me . Up until three hours ago I was wandering through the world, with a faint memory of the time that I followed a…

Not every wrong in the world needs to be righted. Sometimes righting an old wrong creates a new wrong. Personally, I find new wrongs to be more costly than old ones.

Would those down-voting comments please take the time to reply explaining why?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#127

Post by prawn » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 6:01 AM UTC

enjo wrote: post #115

webwright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno if you've ever worked in a small startup, but to think that all wording that gets out the door gets vetted all the time is just ridiculous. My startup is pretty careful, but we've gotten caught with mistakes or even placeholder content once or twice. Chances are, some lowbie at the company said, "Oh, this will improve the text, I bet. I'll make sure to bring it up in the next design review". If a private comm…

I'm currently at my third. Even if it was placeholder content it had been on the site for more than a week, on every single non-paying customers page. That's not something that just slips by. This isn't a typo in the terms of service, it's a marketing tool. Give me a break. Your never going to convince me this was a simple mistake.

Enjo, I back your position on this 100%. Dodgy, intentional marketing tactic from GS - no doubt about it.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#128

Post by swombat » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 6:45 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #83

swombat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to manage "feeling upset" is generally considered a good thing, no? Or are we supposed to give in to our feelings every time we feel upset?

I'm trying to separate the legitimacy of 37signals' complaint --- which I care about --- from the "level of maturity" shown by their response. I don't care about that at all. Why would it? How does it affect me?

How does it affect me?

First of all, you also run a start-up, so it affects you because they might turn on you next, for some slight misunderstanding.

Secondly, it affects you as a customer, because people who act immaturely rarely do so in a single area. They might treat you, as a customer, with a similar level of immaturity, if you tick them off.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#129

Post by Raphael_Amiard » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 9:15 AM UTC

swombat wrote: post #128

tptacek wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to separate the legitimacy of 37signals' complaint --- which I care about --- from the "level of maturity" shown by their response. I don't care about that at all. Why would it? How does it affect me?

How does it affect me? First of all, you also run a start-up, so it affects you because they might turn on you next, for some slight misunderstanding. Secondly, it affects you as a customer, because people who act immaturely rarely do so in a single area. They might treat you, as a customer, with a similar level of immaturity, if you tick them off.

You walk on a very thin rope here. I don't at all buy the 'slight misunderstanding' thing concerning the case they had.

The damage to 37signals image could have been very real. Even if it wasn't done purposedly.

What is more important is, i don't get why you see 37signals as the porentially harmful actor here. If i had a startup i would be very happy that 37signals did the job to stop this company to potentially harm My work too !

Also the argument that this public response is gonna 'harm' getsatisfaction in anyway doesn't hold up at all. At the very worse, this is bad publicity, and if they're smart they can still turn that around easily.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#130

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 9:37 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #56

swombat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have disagreements and confrontation all the time. Mature people resolve those potential conflicts through calm discussion. Immature people resort to attacking the people they disagree with.

I was surprised this 37s post didn't end with "and this is why on March 31, 2009 we filed suit against Get Satisfaction for trademark infringement and unjust enrichment". That they don't seem to have done that hurts your argument that they're being immature. Also, calling 37signals out for going straight to the public seems like an exceptionally weak criticism in this case. GS is trading on inserting themselves into…

[deleted]