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Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

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Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#121

Post by HappMacDonald »

vivzkestrel wrote: post #10

- does anyone have actual proof that surveillance does not effectively curb terrorism or something along those lines? - i keep seeing the same arguments everywhere "ThEy WaNt To CoNtRoL Us" etc - how do you propose catching terrorists then?

Well, primarily because surveillance is terrorism.

Terrorists are not mustache-twirling villians planting bombs in old-folks homes just to provide a simple target for the protagonist to foil.

They are simply anyone who uses terror as a means of control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#122

Post by DrScientist »

deaux wrote: post #36
DrScientist wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point - in the UK you can currently be put into prison for a long stretch under terrorism charges for holding up a sign with just 4 words.

Last I checked River->Sea is 6 words. Unless it's a phrase about a different subject, but I can't imagine since the UK only tends to arrest sign holders as part of protecting Bibi's interests.

You don't get prison for that.

It starts "I support" and ends action.

It's just the most recent and egregious misuse of anti-terrorism laws - doing the sort of thing that they claimed it never would be used for when they were brought in.

Secret courts, evidence the defence isn't allowed to see nevermind challenge, judges trying to restrict what the defence can say, long prison terms for simply holding up a sign.

The treatment of Julian Assange was a warning of what was to come.

These are worrying trends.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#123

Post by tim333 »

0x_rs wrote: post #61

The internet, as it was before the one-way ratchet started to close, feels more and more like a lightning in a bottle that nobody in power wants repeating ever again. Everything in the past couple years has been going towards the centralization into a small number of services, walled wastelands that require you forfeit any kind of anonymity to even browse, tightly coupled to the countries they operate in, and especia…

On the other hand, while there is more monitored walled garden stuff, there is more stuff in general. I seem to be seeing more varied and often anonymous views than in the early internet when there was less good content up there.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#124

Post by DrScientist »

amiga386 wrote: post #46
DrScientist wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point - in the UK you can currently be put into prison for a long stretch under terrorism charges for holding up a sign with just 4 words.

The four words you're referring to are "I support Palestine Action", and there's nobody in prison "for a long stretch" just for saying that. There have been over 3000 people arrested for showing support for this proscribed organisation, and over 700 charged, but none actually prosecuted yet. It was only just decided two weeks ago that the government's act of proscribing Palestine Action was lawful. https://www.thegua…

As you say the max penalty is 14 years in prison.

I would argue the state harassment of these protestors is the actual terrorism - using state violence for political means.

As you say there is also an underlying reason - but it's not the painting of the planes on the RAF base - it was well underway before then. The main driver was the Filton case.

A really concerning development recently is that the judge has decided to sentence people on the basis of terrorism, despite the people not being convicted for terrorism charges - just criminal damage.

Now they are recorded as terrorist for life - despite no jury ever convicting them of that.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/inside-the-palestine-action-tr...

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#125

Post by tim333 »

simonask wrote: post #26
egorfine wrote: post #19

reddit started asking KYC yesterday. You (and me) can bitch all you want, but reddit has well prepared for us whining and being sad will change nothing. Mark my words: KYC will be required on HN in about two years. Not because dang will want it, but because that's the direction the world is going to.

It's weird because... I'm not the customer on either Reddit or HN. I'm the product.

It's a protect the kids law. Customer/product is irrelevant.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#126

Post by tim333 »

ranger_danger wrote: post #109

Why did so many countries all start trying to do this at once?

Research came out suggesting social media was harming kids, along the lines of https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anxious-Generation-Rewiring-Childho...

then politicians thought what to do - put restrictions on kids using social media.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#127

Post by amiga386 »

DrScientist wrote: post #124
amiga386 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The four words you're referring to are "I support Palestine Action", and there's nobody in prison "for a long stretch" just for saying that. There have been over 3000 people arrested for showing support for this proscribed organisation, and over 700 charged, but none actually prosecuted yet. It was only just decided two weeks ago that the government's act of proscribing Palestine Action was lawful. https://www.thegua…

As you say the max penalty is 14 years in prison. I would argue the state harassment of these protestors is the actual terrorism - using state violence for political means. As you say there is also an underlying reason - but it's not the painting of the planes on the RAF base - it was well underway before then. The main driver was the Filton case. A really concerning development recently is that the judge has decided…

That's the rub, though. The Filton 24 are actual terrorists and their abettors. Smashing up a company to further your political cause is terrorism. "I don't care if you use these weapons to murder and rape j..Zionists, but because those weapons are intended to strike Palestinians, I simply must SMASHY SMASH SMASH. Ha ha, crunch goes the policewoman's spine! Ow stop hurting me with those handcuffs! Why am I in prison?"

That's what the IRA did when they bombed the UK - they not only threatened the safety of the public, they also deliberately inflicted massive economic damage to push their political objectives.

Breaking into RAF Brize Norton was the icing on the cake. That's why the Home Secretary moved to proscribe the group the very next day. She hadn't felt the need to do that for the year or so since the Elbit break-in, nor the Leonardo break-in, but the moment some chucklefucks reveal the UK is so incompetent it can't defend its own RAF bases from intruders, those fuckers are going down. The group's past violence and destruction gave her the ammo to make the proscription stick.

On the other hand, protesting the company - e.g. shouting at them, or holding a sign - is merely speech. I can't ever see that as being terrorism, which why I completely disagree with the Terrorism Act. Praising the violent group in public is speech too. It is just a nonsense that this speech is also criminalised, and that the maximum penalties are so high. A draconian law like that has a chilling effect on speech just by existing, even if nobody is ever prosecuted for their speech. But that said, watch for the outcome of these 700 charges against protestors, I bet they will be insubstantial or be dropped, and nobody who just held a sign will go to prison. The process itself is punishment.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#128

Post by deaux »

DrScientist wrote: post #122
deaux wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked River->Sea is 6 words. Unless it's a phrase about a different subject, but I can't imagine since the UK only tends to arrest sign holders as part of protecting Bibi's interests.

You don't get prison for that. It starts "I support" and ends action. It's just the most recent and egregious misuse of anti-terrorism laws - doing the sort of thing that they claimed it never would be used for when they were brought in. Secret courts, evidence the defence isn't allowed to see nevermind challenge, judges trying to restrict what the defence can say, long prison terms for simply holding up a sign. The…

By pure coincidence, I learned today that there's also another four words that will at least get you prosecuted in the UK: "You have a conscience".

https://www.declassifieduk.org/palestine-action-lawyer-faces...

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#129

Post by mdp2021 »

egorfine wrote: post #94
mdp2021 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? You do realize that "those" people have little to nothing to do with proper people, right? Of course people are deficient by the billions.

And that means that largely nobody cares about us with our opinion. Internet WILL be completely KYCed and very soon. That's kind of inevitable.

We are the ones who build. We'll find a way.

But the systemic clusterfuck must be fixed at some point. We can't mingle with the monkeys for too long.

Re: Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best

#130

Post by mdp2021 »

egorfine wrote: post #94
mdp2021 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? You do realize that "those" people have little to nothing to do with proper people, right? Of course people are deficient by the billions.

And that means that largely nobody cares about us with our opinion. Internet WILL be completely KYCed and very soon. That's kind of inevitable.

> opinion

Hypoteses non fingo (Newton)

I deal with the objective.

Such as, no Man accepts identification when accessing information.

That is completely different from any "opinion".

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