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The disappearance of Japan's animators

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Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#121

Post by jarjoura »

punkbit wrote: post #65

Sadly, some people believe that Generative AI output is the same; I find it very hard to watch and extremely cringe. I did see some good examples, but still not the same type of quality. For untrained eyes, all look the same, but I'm definitely not that type of person and very supportive of proper craftsmanship. You can see this same thing happening in software engineering and product design.

My only problem with generative art is

1: right now, it's basically 90% beautiful hyper-realistic woman in some scene.

That is SO incredibly boring. These models are able to generate all kinds of never before seen mixed together content. Yet, everyone just wants to generate photos of things you could have already searched for.

2: creative people should be the biggest and loudest voices celebrating it but the vision researchers building the tools have only been interested in solving the math side of it and haven't bothered to ask creatives what they even wanted. It's fine in private R&D, at the hypothesis stage, but then these corporate heads went and shipped as finished products and charge us serious money for it. So, creatives rightly feel uneasy about the models that legitimately "stole" their content without permission, while also minting new millionaires at these companies by selling it back to them.

Once companies license the content and artists can make royalties, and the tools to interface with the models become sophisticated so that you're not one-shot prompting into existence a random thing, more creative people will come back. (i.e. ComfyUI)

---

Plus, these models need actual fully staffed product teams behind them to solve and own the ethical issues around things like character identity locking that can be used to deceive. Or being too easy to say "in the style of" that could almost perfectly replicate another artist's entire voice. Then, there is the nudity issue. I don't want generative models to have morals, especially when it's art. Art is meant to be provocative and boundary pushing. I realize that's an entire deep-hole of shit in there waiting to get through, but that's why we need people spending their work day thinking about it more than just blocking anything that shows too much skin.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#122

Post by dartharva »

bilbo0s wrote: post #94
frmersdog wrote: post #90

Hey, hi, yoohoo whistles . Everyone gather 'round and reread this part: Lacking proper training and a viable salary, many young animators don’t feel they can keep going. The Japan Research Institute estimated that a quarter of them quit the industry within four years, and two-thirds in eight years. This retention problem has often been viewed as a form of natural selection. “I think this way of thinking is misguided,…

> As ever, if you want to know where much of the expertise has gone, look to China (and South Korea) Good news! You don't need to worry about that anymore! I can guarantee you, as the article implies, money from big tech is being funneled to people perfecting models for in-betweeners as we speak. /s I think we may be entering an era where we really have to start thinking about how to organize work at a fundamental le…

Unironically, ever since generative art tech arrived I have been anticipating full automation of in-betweening. I am rather (pleasantly) surprised it hasn't already been done.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#123

Post by nvlled »

KerrAvon wrote: post #16
world2vec wrote: post #6

Anime has never been more popular but honestly its quality has declined a lot. It's all isekai and supernatural-sexy-schoolgirl-whatever (kinda creepy) these days. Or the same old animes that go on forever. Every year there's less and less animes that are worth the time to watch IMHO.

What? This is a golden age of anime. You could count the number of anime available in the west and worth watching 25 years ago on one hand, maybe two. Now? If you can't find something, you're not looking hard enough. Off the top of my head, current anime that do not remotely fit your categories: - Spy x Family - Dandadan - Dungeon Meshi - Apocalypse Hotel - Yumi no Tsugai (Daemons of the Shadow Realm) - Kaiju No. 8 -…

Dungeon Meshi is a good well-rounded recommendation even for those who aren't particularly into anime. I'd personally add to that list:

- Clevatess

- Kusuriya no Hitorigoto

- Tongari Boushi no Atelier

- Sousou no Frieren

- Yuusha-kei ni Shosu

- Shoushimin Series

- Chi. Chikyuu no Undou ni Tsuite

With my recommendation criteria being: good (or decent budget) art/animation, good story and characters, and nothing too "weird" in it for the general population.

Off-topic rant for dandadan:

One of the main character Takakura is initially portrayed as being obsessed with aliens and UFOs, to the point it affects his social life. But the morning after their actual encounter with paranormal, the dude literally can't think about anything but pussy. I couldn't get past what a grifting poseur the protagonist was and I dropped the anime after that. Petty reason, but I'll probably change my mind and retry again in the future. Or not.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#124

Post by bambeeno »

famouswaffles wrote: post #93
numpad0 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just texturing over a labor intensive 3D animation that doesn't seem like a production quality one. IIUC, geometrically correct 3D animations are basically worthless. You're already lost if you need perfect 3D renders as the reference.

>That's just texturing over a labor intensive 3D animation >You're already lost if you need perfect 3D renders as the reference The reference is far from a "perfect 3D render". That's a rudimentary 3D blockout. The characters are basic mannequins without specific geometry, and the environment is composed of untextured, flat-shaded boxes. The demo uses stock assets so effort meter is even more skewed in AI's favour bu…

To see this and imagine this it without seeing context and intention, outside of a production proper, is missing the point. Of ot doesnt do exactly what you envisioned with the ease of your current tools or better is pretty much useless. Ai art looks good for non artists, ai writing for non writers, ai medical advice… for non doctors.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#126

Post by utopiah »

bee_rider wrote: post #76
utopiah wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat, I didn't know for Ghost in the Shell, I'll be watching it in few weeks then! Thanks for sharing. PS: so weird to watch the trailer while working in XR. I never imagined as a kid I'd be programming in a headset but now it's banal. I even buy 2nd hand HMDs for 100 bucks. Weird times.

This isn’t banal for me! What’s a good headset for programming these days?

Ah my bad I probably created false hopes here but let me clarify :

I program in VR for VR, and I help kids (and adults) learn programming thanks to VR.

What I do NOT do is writing my bash scripts or things unrelated to VR in VR. I technically can but I just have so much tooling and habits outside of VR it wouldn't make sense.

I'll answer your question as the end, you can skip to the last paragraph if you do not need the context.

Still do program in VR I can explain a bit more, or even show with a 1min video https://video.benetou.fr/w/iuJUP5oNnRAfH2xC3AW9s4 . Basically you can see ~20s that using the left pinch I can execute code in VR. Those specific code snippets are part of triad with querySelector() to get an element, setAttribute with it's attribute name then the last the value, e.g. here querySelector('a-sky').setAttribute('color', 'black') which sets the sky color to black. The idea here is to make a small change with a big impact.

If you are not a developer, it feels pretty cool (from the feedback I received) but if you are a developer there are 3 things you can notice :

- this is all done in a browser, as you can see from the beginning of the video, despite being properly immersive. I'm relying on eval() to provide a no-install no-build programming environment

- the black plane on the right is the browser console, literally. There is some visual feedback with green for console.log() yellow for console.warn() and red for console.error()

- the black plane on the left (hard to notice, ~34s in) is the code of the page

- the code snippets can be combined

- there is some syntax highlighting in order to hint that different attributes and there values are not compatible, e.g. scale black does not make sense or color 2 2 2 is also not correct

- the modifications are saved server side (but can also be done solely on device via local storage) so that others can build on the modifications you saved

and things you can't notice

- if you plug a keyboard, bluetooth or just USB-C, you can type code directly, it will become floating text snippet

- there is page reload code snippet at your feet, if you mess up you can recover from a proper state

- there is a non immersive console via eruda that is richer and expandable in case your changes break immersive mode, you still have a way to try to recover

- you can self-host that immersive Web on the device, it's just a Web server with HTTPS, if you want work properly offline, which is good when traveling, e.g. train or planes (that's how I do it on the go)

So... yes IMHO it's a good way to program in VR, today. It's also a good way to learn programming. If you program in VR chances are you quickly get frustrated by having to put the headset, work, hit a bug then remove the headset, try again, etc. That cycle can be frustrating so trying to find ways to do the spatial things in VR makes sense. The non spatial work though, e.g. backend, that can be properly tested outside of VR, IME should not be done in the headset, even when it can be done. Of course it depends on your workflow.

Finally which is a good headset depends on what kind of programming you want to do. If it's nothing spatial and you "just" want a 2D screen ... honestly I don't think it's worth it. I did try a lot of headsets. I worked with Varjo and Quest Pro, have a Vision Pro, Lynx XR1, Quest 3, Quest 2, Quest 1, Oculus Go, Valve Index, etc. I never spend 8hrs/day in any of those. It's short sessions or while on the move. I don't expect any headset to be "good enough" compared to a basic 4K 32" monitor, ever. What I also don't expect is any monitor, no matter how fancy (and same here, I worked with Looking Glass 8K, ~15k EUR monitor) to provide any proper sense of depth supporting manipulation. So if your programming work involve 3D work... then VR headsets are amazing. If so which one to buy? Depends on your programming language. If you are into JavaScript then any of the Quest will do but the latest generation (Quest 3) has color passthrough and higher resolution. It's also Android based so you can put termux to setup NodeJS, Python, etc and serve the content as notebooks. If you are into the Apple wall garden then obviously the Vision Pro but you'll have to go through all the usual hoops to publish anything.

TL;DR: high res with WebXR support and adb (or equivalent), e.g. Quest 3 (ideally rooted but that's hard to come by)

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#127

Post by userbinator »

thesuitonym wrote: post #57
RobKohr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically they get paid peanuts and are overworked and so no one wants to do it. Also seems like something AI could really cut into. You could have a master animator doing much of important thoughtful work and AI filling in the obvious as well as doing tweening (sound similar to programming) Really, who needs a studio if you have the creative talent and ability to leverage AI for the grunt work. Or have a couple g…

If AI is making our anime anyway, why do we need an anime industry? Let's just get rid of it and we'll all generate our own shows to watch. Why should I pay a platform for someone else's slop when I can make my own? Business leaders and AI chuds seem to be forgetting that if AI can meet the needs of their business, then we no longer need the business.

It's already happening. Individuals are already creating multiple-minute elaborate AI videos. Fanfics will soon no longer be merely text or crude images.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#128

Post by utopiah »

waldohatesyou wrote: post #101
bee_rider wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t banal for me! What’s a good headset for programming these days?

+1 to this, I’ve never heard of someone actually doing that. I was hopeful the Vision Pro would become that device but Apple seems to have decided they don’t care about the future.

There are dozens of us!

I clarified a bit in a longer post. I do actually like the Vision Pro... but even though I own one I barely use it. It's a good device but it's just too many hoops for what I do. I find a much affordable Quest, even older generations, with adb and a proper WebXR support (including with AR support, which Apple refuses to implement) fits better my need. I have 0 problem popping a Quest 2 in my backpack without even thinking about it, only protection being a literally piece of cardboard on the lenses. I can work with it anywhere and give demos to total stranger with no worries about them dropping it or heck even running away with it.

FWIW I'm also not in the Apple ecosystem so all the wall garden hoops just tire me. I want the device I own to let me do my work.

I find that, probably counter-intuitively, super high resolution and refresh rate matter... but only up to a point. As I mentioned in the longer post if you are "just" looking for a monitor with another form factor, sure, maybe it's OK-ish, but to me it's very uninteresting and not worth all the challenges, including social, of having an HMD strapped to your face. Only when it's properly immersive does it shine, and then resolution and refresh rate don't have to be that high to be usable.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#129

Post by utopiah »

utopiah wrote: post #126
bee_rider wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t banal for me! What’s a good headset for programming these days?

Ah my bad I probably created false hopes here but let me clarify : I program in VR for VR, and I help kids (and adults) learn programming thanks to VR. What I do NOT do is writing my bash scripts or things unrelated to VR in VR. I technically can but I just have so much tooling and habits outside of VR it wouldn't make sense. I'll answer your question as the end, you can skip to the last paragraph if you do not need…

I did try the Valve Frame ... and I'll give recommendation only when it's officially out, but I can freely repeat what everybody else already said, the ergonomics are on point. You basically forget you are wearing an HMD. Sadly AFAIK they won't officially support WebXR and their focus, which is fair, is on their own store, Steam. So I wouldn't wait on it unfortunately.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#130

Post by Ekaros »

fusslo wrote: post #31
jdw64 wrote: post #4

After reading this article, I got curious whether there was a similar article from Japan, and there actually is. The average monthly income in the animation industry is 200,000 yen (about $1,300 USD), but the median working hours are 2,745 hours per year. That comes out to 225 hours per month, or 52 hours per week [1][2]. Considering that animators' work is essentially drawing labor, that's an insane amount of work.…

There's a japanese docuseries called 'Manben' (available on youtube) that interviews a bunch of famous manga artists. Without fail they all talk about how much work, hours, suffering goes into the first years of making manga. It's very interesting to watch and I highly recommend it. But it's also a GREAT advertisement for avoiding the industry.

First years. It is pretty bad considering these are most likely weekly releases. And just how many works gets axed in less than a year. Mostly for not being very good and thus not being popular enough. It really is a brutal industry with heavy power law distributions. And being famous these are the people who made it. Not those dropped on the side of the road.

Really is something not to do unless you have absolute passion.

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